Greater fighter: Canelo Alvarez or Juan Francisco Estrada

Matthew Macklin>Juan Francisco Estrada. Talent Pool doe.

 

Your argument is pathetic. "NObOdY caReS aBOut ThEsE MidGeTS" is not an argument; it's a hyperlative, and it isn't one that holds up to scrutiny. Furthermore, it absolutely can be refuted. 108 to 115 has been better at the top end over the last ten years than 154 to 168 has. In fact, it isn't close. Since Canelo fought Trout and Estrada fought Gonzalez for the first time, Estrada has fought in much deeper weight classes; and such has scored the better wins.

Even if the argument about depth was true, which it isn't, the depth of talent is completely irrelevant. The two things which actually matter are the quality of fighters at the top of the division - not the bottom - and the opponents they each beat. Super-Flyweight's best fighters over the last five years is better than ANY other weight class in boxing, not just the ones Canelo has fought in. Even still, that ALSO isn't relevant. What matters most is who they fought and who they beat; and Estrada has beaten better fighters, and has never been completely embarrassed like Canelo was against Bivol and Mayweather.

 

Stop that's dumb. I'm talking about when comparing elite fighters and good fighters here at those weights stop being ridiculous.

 

He hasn't been completely embarrassed because there's only a few fighters at those weights worth a damn. If he could blow himself up and fought the same weights that canelo did he would get worked. You can't dismiss facts the facts are they're fewer grown men in this world that weigh 125 pounds or less than guys walking around at average sizes 165 170 175 or 180. This only doesn't make sense to people who have an axe to grind or are midgets themselves who want to play up this extreme skill level and a deep almost non existent talent pool at these low weights. It's almost like a napoleon complex or something trying overcompesate. These guys are great at what they are but lets not kid ourselves into making them more than what they actually are and that is big fish in a very small pond of talent.

 

Of course he has, the only people who don’t think so are haters and or nerds on the internet. Most Mexicans including Chavez Sr himself claimed Canelo was the greatest Mexican in this lifetime as well as support from dozens of other Mexican celebrities and boxers. Cuedras just isn’t on the level of Canelo, even Cuedras himself would admit so.

 

No, he hasn't. The only people who think he has are the ones who don't understand just how great guys like Ruben Olivares, Miguel Canto, Vicente Saldivar and Chucho Castillo actually were. Chavez is a very humble man, but he accomplished far more than Canelo ever did and likely ever will. There's a lock for the top five Mexicans ever and Canelo can't compete with them. It's not meant as disrespect; Estrada doesn't either. It's just the way it is. Canelo is closer to Marco Antonio Barrera than he is Carlos Zarate.

Bro if you don't even know the difference between Cuadras and Estrada then I'm done talking to you about this topic.

 

I’m at work right now, was clearly a typo. I can’t give my full input atm but you’re not really saying anything but your personal opinion which is pretty irrelevant. You don’t even know Spanish bro so how can you tell what kind of person Chavez is, the man is the opposite of what you said. I’ll get back to you when I have more time though.

 

Estrada but people ignor the lower weights

 

It was a typo twice, yeah? Sure.

Chavez calls the current flavour of the month, who battered his own son the Mexican GOAT - a title he coveted for himself for years - and you want to tell me he isn't humble?

I couldn't give a **** if I don't speak Spanish, that's what translators are for.

 

Wait, maybe I'm missing something - are people actually saying the little guys are less talented than larger fighters, just because they're small?

 

There's a lot more quality fighters who are 'worth a damn' at Estrada's weigh than there is at Canelo's... but you're right, Estrada has never lost every round to a 36 year old in his fifth weight class.

If Estrada was a super middleweight, he'd get worked? Is that actually your argument? Jesus ****ing Christ.

Oh my god, again with this **** about the average guy. Are you actually ****ing dense? Can you not read? The fact that there are more men in the general population who weigh closer to Canelo's weight than Estrada's is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. The average man isn't who either of these guys fight. They fight the best in the world, and the best fighters at 115 are a damn sight better than the best fighters at ANY weight Canelo has fought at. It's not even close.

What the general man weighs means absolutely nothing to the discussion just based on the fact that a) the average man is far from a world class athlete in a weight cutting sport; and b) neither Canelo, nor Estrada are fighting the average man. They fight the best in their division. Obviously I understand that if more people at that weight are fighting, then the general result should be a higher talent pool by virtue of having a wider 'catch', but that goes out the window when the observable outcome disproves the idea. The best fighters at 112-115 are better than the best fighters at Canelo's weights and have been for the last ten years.The entire argument is just flawed on so many levels. You don't understand what the talent pool actually is, nor do you understand the fact that even if you did understand what it was; it's completely irrelevant to the entire discussion.


Beating Rungvisai and Chocolatito is absolutely on par with beating GGG; the only difference is Estrada has two wins on that level whereas Canelo only has one. The fluff on Canelo's record like beating Callum Smith, old, drunk Kovalev or Caleb Plant isn't as impressive as beating the likes of Tyson, Segura and Melindo. Throw in the wins over Cuadras 2x and Viloria, and Canelo's wins against Lara, Trout and Daniel Jacobs Saunders just don't cut it. They flat out aren't as good. Then you've got the fact that Canelo's losses to both Mayweather and Bivol are blemishes which Estrada just doesn't have. He has never been embarrassed like that, and won't ever for the rest of his prime. The only thing Canelo has over Estrada is quantity. He has a lot of good wins, but his best wins are noticeably worse than Estrada's.

 

I work for a living bro, trust me if I could roam these forums 24/7 like some of you folk here I would. You don’t speak or understand Spanish that means you don’t know wtf you’re talking about, translator?

 

I'd be more inclined to believe you could speak Spanish if you could spell Cuadras right.

 

Claro que si, yo soy boricua papa por que no?

 

No I'm saying that there a fewer great fighters at those lower weights than at higher weights because the talent pool is so small. It's a numbers game.
If you put 100 potential boxers who are grown men in a room only 5% of them or less will be 125 pounds or less. Many more probably atleast half of them will be around 160 or more. Therefore if all these guys were boxers you would more than likely have more talent a deeper pool in that room of people around 160 and above than you wouold the ones 125 and below. It's a simple concept but some people want to argue ridiculous points because they have an axe to grind or are small themselves and sympathize with the lower weightclasses.