Greater Fighter: Chavez or Ortiz

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by the cobra, Nov 6, 2008.


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  1. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    I rank these two near each other and see the case for either to be rated higher, so I would like to know what the consensus is on ESB as to who is the greater fighter, Julio Cesar Chavez or Carlos Ortiz.

    Chavez was The WBC Jr. Lightweight champion with 9 defenses that he vacated, WBA Lightweight champion with one defense before unifying it with the WBC belt and he vacated both, and unified the WBC and IBF belts at Jr.Welterweight, overall making 12 defenses before losing it to Frankie Randall. Never beaten in his prime, Winning his first 87 fights in his first 13 years as a pro before meeting Whitaker at Welterweight.

    Wins over Meldrick Taylor, Edwin Rosario, Hector Camacho, Jose Luis Ramirez, Roger Mayweather (twice), Greg Haugen, Mario Martinez, Tony Lopez, close wins over Rocky Lockridge and Juan LaPorte, etc.


    Ortiz was the Jr. Welterweight champion with 2 defenses, losing his crown to Duilio Loi, and two-time Lightweight champion, overall making 10 successful defenses during his two reigns.

    Wins over Ismael Laguna (twice), Duilio Loi, Joe Brown, Flash Elorde (twice), Kenny Lane (twice), Sugar Ramos (twice), Johnny Bizzarro, Battling Torres, Dave Charnley, Johnny Busso, etc. 4 of those men (Laguna, Loi, Lane, and Busso) were responsible for 5 of his 7 defeats, the other two coming past his best.

    On how each rates in H2H ability at their best, they are on an even level as I see it.

    So who is the greater fighter?
     
    the cobra, Nov 6, 2008
    the cobra, Nov 6, 2008
    #1
  2. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    I have Ortiz at #28 on my list, with Chavez just outside of the top 35, though in the top 40 somewhere.

    Ortiz generally defeated the higher quality of opponent, even with Chavez's amazing record, and was the more versatile, well rounded fighter IMO. A fight between the two would've been pretty much even money, though I'd edge Ortiz due to the versatility edge that I alluded to. He'd be able to hold his own from mid to close range while generally out-boxing Chavez from range.
     
    Sweet Pea, Nov 6, 2008
    Sweet Pea, Nov 6, 2008
    #2
  3. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Do you know anything about the decisions in the fights with Loi and Locche? I haven't read much on any of these fights, has anything led you to believe that Ortiz should have lost all three to Loi, or if he deserved the win in one of the other two bouts, and is there any indication that the draw against Locche should have been a win for Ortiz?

    Same thing with Chavez and the decisions against Laporte and Lockgridge, I have never seen the fights but have heard of some controversy around the wins.

    I think small details like this would help me make up my mind as to who to rank higher. I really haven't been any more impressed by either one in the fights I've seen of each, and even though Ortiz has the better resume, I think the losses to some of those fighters he beat makes it a bit more balanced.
     
    the cobra, Nov 6, 2008
    the cobra, Nov 6, 2008
    #3
  4. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    According to accounts, it's arguable that he should've lost all 3 bouts to Loi, but that he also beat Locche clearly. The decision was called a draw because of the scoring system in Argentina (if the bout isn't decided by more than 4 points, it's an automatic draw, hence the reason for all the draws in bouts taking place there).

    Chavez's bout with Lockridge is on Youtube if you want to check it out to make up your own opinion, but both Lockridge and LaPorte had him backing up at times due to their power. I personally feel he won both closely. I might re-score the Lockridge bout tomorrow.
     
    Sweet Pea, Nov 6, 2008
    Sweet Pea, Nov 6, 2008
    #4
  5. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Just three votes?

    Anyone else?
     
    the cobra, Nov 7, 2008
    the cobra, Nov 7, 2008
    #5
  6. Minotauro

    Minotauro Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Chavez
     
    Minotauro, Nov 8, 2008
    Minotauro, Nov 8, 2008
    #6
  7. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Chavez is #25 for me, and Ortiz is #35.

    Ortiz has better wins and worse losses. Or to put it another way, Ortiz has a better resume and Chavez is more consistent.

    Ultimately I rank Chavez higher because I think Chavez would beat Ortiz in a h2h matchup and he may fair a little better against some other lightweight greats.

    I think Chavez would come out on top in a series with Loi and I doubt he'd ever get beaten by the likes of Lane or Laguna. Chavez did have some struggles in fights, and so maybe saying that he wouldn't lose to those sorts of fighters is a bit presumptuous, but I think Chavez generally did enough to win every time out. Ortiz was prone to lose on an off night, Chavez was prone to win close on an off night.

    All that said Ortiz was still fairly consistent and he did accumulate the better resume (it's also arguable that he beats Chavez) so I have no issue with someone putting Ortiz ahead.
     
    sweet_scientist, Nov 8, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Nov 8, 2008
    #7
  8. TommyV

    TommyV Loyal Member banned

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    I'd edge towards Chavez.

    I am however in the process of re-evalutating both fighters, so Chavez could drop down my list, and Ortiz could prop up.
     
    TommyV, Nov 8, 2008
    TommyV, Nov 8, 2008
    #8
  9. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    Ortiz would have been the best, most well rounded and clever fighter that Chavez would have ever faced. He could punch and box...whatever the occasion called for, and had the discipline to stick to a winning game plan, ala his title winning fight with Joe Brown. Ortiz would have beaten Chavez over 15 rounds with room to spare, and then would have done it again in a rematch.
     
    red cobra, Nov 9, 2008
    red cobra, Nov 9, 2008
    #9
  10. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    Ortiz. He would have beaten Chavez too, I think, just by being able to match him for strength but having the technical skills on the outside (which included a jab that was one of the best ever in the division).
     
    Manassa, Nov 9, 2008
    Manassa, Nov 9, 2008
    #10
  11. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Chavez is in the second level of great fighters. Ortiz is slightly below this, one of the best fighters who is not great IMO.
     
    TBooze, Nov 10, 2008
    TBooze, Nov 10, 2008
    #11
  12. Holmes' Jab

    Holmes' Jab Master Jabber Full Member

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    Chavez may well be the better fighter of the two and I'd give a slight esge to him head to head, but in a P4P sense it's Ortiz.
     
    Holmes' Jab, Nov 10, 2008
    Holmes' Jab, Nov 10, 2008
    #12
  13. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    Ortiz, not great? :huh

    Tell me who else is on this level.
     
    Manassa, Nov 10, 2008
    Manassa, Nov 10, 2008
    #13
  14. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    He ranks Ortiz #96 of all time. Ranking are not his strong suit, that much is obvious from the vast number of lists he's given.
     
    Sweet Pea, Nov 10, 2008
    Sweet Pea, Nov 10, 2008
    #14
  15. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    :huh
     
    Sweet Pea, Nov 10, 2008
    Sweet Pea, Nov 10, 2008
    #15
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