Greater Heavyweight - HOLMES or LEWIS ?

Lewis. Prime for Prime he can drop Holmes and finish him.

 

Here are some arguments for Lewis:
1. He beat every professional boxer he stepped into the ring with

2. He avenged both his defeats

3. In the last fight of his career, he defeated the champion of the NEXT generation; no one has such an example, neither Ali nor Louis

4. Lewis' resume is impressive, even though his opponents were mostly past prime. If I say: Tyson, Holyfield and Vitali..., I don't need to list any more

 

Holmes, by a hair.

 

It's incredibly close , but I think Lennox fought more genuine threats than just about any champion.
His consistency was amazing.
His career was let down twice by defeats that happened right at the point at which he was establishing himself as the best.
Of course he avenged both.
His career lacked ' The defining fight ' , which probably should have been Bowe.
Tyson and Holyfield came too late to be ' defining ' .
It's a close call , the fighters themselves would be a 50/50 match up at their best , but I give Lewis the nod here , due to in my opinion , a stronger deeper resume.

 

Holmes, zero doubt. He won by shutout twice over the Championship Distance, future Champion Berbick (who Tyson himself considered himself the Champion after defeating) and Cobb, who Dokes could only get a dispute decision over the first time, and won a TD the second time because of flagrant Don King card rigging. (No way anybody can argue Tex won the completed rounds over Michael by a mile in their rematch.) The Championship Distance is a limit Lennox never had the opportunity to prove himself over.

Lennox lost the Championship TWICE on a SINGLE punch. If anybody was ever going to do this to Larry, Earnie Shavers would have done it with the HARDEST PUNCH EVER LANDED.

The Easton Assassin was the first undefeated fighter to ever win 20 consecutive Championship bouts. To do that as HW Champion, then the biggest prize in all of sports, is completely insane.

Straight up, a single bout after the impervious Oliver McCall took out Lennox with a single punch in just three and a half minutes of action, Holmes lost to the Atomic Bull by a single point on two cards. (We all know Lennox can't take any credit for "winning" the rematch over someone having a mental breakdown. We don't know what would've happened if Oliver held it together through their rematch, as Lennox couldn't hurt him. Shavers couldn't have hurt McCall either. There's never been an irresistible force in boxing, there have been immovable objects however.

Nobody ever counted ten over Holmes because of a single punch. (As it was, an aged and rusty Larry survived for 45 seconds between the second and final KD against PEAK Tyson, and came within five seconds and a caught right uppercut on the ropes of reaching the bell. Everybody who has ever had a punch abruptly and unexpectedly caught up like that knows how much it can screw things up in the heat of battle. I sure do, and it takes more than five seconds to recover. You're looking at a torn bicep or separated elbow. It's amazing Larry's arm wasn't injured by that. Lennox's win over a completely shot Tyson means nothing by the time it happened.)


Larry was stopped once in a situation he had no chance of winning going in, or even hearing the final bell. (If he had gotten out of round four with Tyson, Mike would've stopped him anyway. Incidentally, BoxWRECK incorrectly lists Joe Cortez's RSC as a KO. It was NOT a ten count like Rahman-Lewis I, although Cortez could well have counted him out. Even then, Tyson-Holmes is no more meaningful than Lewis-Tyson. And yes, peak for peak, Larry would've stayed away well enough through a Championship Distance bout to get the best of an opponent with a reach of only 71 inches and a height guesstimated by people who have met him by as little as 5'9". Holmes even did some effective clinching in his actual bout with Tyson, and we saw how frustrated Bonecrusher's clinching made Mike.


Moving right along, Larry was clean with respect to PEDs. He was an honest cheat, with his thumbs, like Frizie Zivic. (Ali's attempted use of a Thyrolar double dose as a clandestine PED has always pissed off a lot of Muslims I know through my Syrian-Orthodox community. If Muhammad had somehow succeeded, we'd have never heard about the Thyrolar as his excuse for losing. It's like Holyfield blaming his steroid use for his heart malfunction during Moorer.)

Like Weaver, Michael Spinks and Tyson himself, Holmes always looked essentially the same with respect to his body, regardless of weight. But Lennox came along after PEDs swelled Holyfield's head like Barry Bonds, like a watermelon. I have to place an asterisk next to the names of everybody who came along around the end of the Championship Distance era. (At least Tyson-Biggs was scheduled for the Championship Distance.) With an intact Championship Distance, Lennox would've remained basketball lean, like I understand Deontay Wilder's been at 6'7".

Lennox was clearly on the skids for his final bout, from what I understand. Once Larry made a proper comeback like Foreman (who Holmes openly acknowledged on camera to have patterned his own post Tyson return after), only Holyfield produced a clear win over him. Larry's vast experience then saw him through the 1990's, and the decline of boxing he benefited from was typified by heretofore undefeated Olympic Gold Medalist Ray Mercer saying after being clowned and schooled to declare, "I guess I'd better learn how to BOX!" (Leon Spinks beat Ali and peak Mercado with heart and balls to the wall. He actually earned a then extremely rare round from peak top three ATG HW Holmes with his head in the game by recognizing an errant early bell Larry failed to realize was false. Because of Mercado though, I'll always regard Leon as a true HW, nothing less. Bernardo did something even Tyson couldn't pull off. He one punched and starched Berbick.)


I'll always credit Tyson for officially doing something only Frazier had done, by formally uniting more than three HW Title recognitions. (With Joe, it started with defeating Mathis for NYSAC honors, proceeding to Ellis I for WBA and vacant WBC acknowledgement [some sources say the vacant WBC came with beating Bob Foster], then Nat Fleischer's Ring [which never stripped Ali despite Fleischer himself being a WW I veteran] came with the FOTC, while Tyson won the WBC with Berbick, WBA with Bonecrusher, IBF with Tucker, and Ring linear with Michael Spinks. (But as with Frazier with Mathis, Tyson did with Berbick. Holmes added Ring honors with Ali, retroactively Weaver through Tate, then was inaugural IBF holder having never been defeated. Weaver, throughout his WBA reign did publicly acknowledge Larry as the number one HW, and they were obviously friendly after their 2000 rematch.)

Following Douglas-Tyson, I pretty much stopped following boxing, although I did idly note Mike's issues with Ruddock before his incarceration. As I said, I respect Tyson for repeating what Frazier did in the wake of Ali's exile, but stop short of granting Mike the same top five ATG status I give Joe, who proved to have much the bigger heart. (And although contrasts make outcomes, I'm not sold that Foreman ALWAYS would have defeated a pre FOTC Frazier. I don't consider the FOTC to be Joe's absolute peak, but the three fight Jerry Quarry I to Jimmy Ellis I, before Frazier fractured his ankle prior to Bob Foster. I've had an ankle fracture, and Joe couldn't have fully recovered before the FOTC, although Ali wasn't the opponent to exploit that compromise. Peak for peak though, I can't see 1969 Frazier getting close enough to be competitive on the cards with 1967 Ali. As for Tyson, see Ali-Patterson I. No stoppage in either case for Ali, but not close on the cards. The great irony of Manila is that Ali produced a stoppage because he was PAST his peak.)


Hard for me to rate Lennox, be he can beat many predecessors who he can stay away from. Over the Championship Distance, one non ATG Champion he wouldn't have been able to remain far enough away from was 20 round veteran Max Baer, who had sufficient height, reach and overhand right to eventually clobber Lennox like Rahman and McCall. (Keep in mind that the Larruper's right hand was screwed up for Louis in the Bomber's peak performance. Louis beats a healthy Maxie anyways, but not with that kind of speed. As it was, the elder Baer brother had him against the ropes as round two ended.)

Holmes is unique in that nobody clearly out jabbed him after Tiger Williams briefly proved he could have done it without his sparring partner mentality. Cooney didn't try, although Gerry should've keyed his jab after the way he dwarfed Denis with it. (With Eddie Futch, Larry would've been my choice to try winning one in a series with 1967 to mythical 1969 Ali.)

 

Two great fighters .. Lewis was so strong to go with his skill set but I feel Holmes was more naturally skilled, clearly faster and tougher .. I like Larry by decision ...

 

Better competition: Lewis.

Power: Lewis by far

Footwork: Holmes

Footspeed: Holmes by far

Handspeed: Holmes

Punching variety : Lewis

Durability: Holmes

Stamina: Holmes

Body punching: Lewis

Jab: Holmes

Holmes is more well rounded. Lewis has the bigger weapons and better wins. Close but i rank Holmes higher. Its hard for me to rank Lewis top 3 because he is susceptible to a one punch ko even though his chin was actually pretty good.

 

I feel similarly; Holmes never suffered a knockout by a non-ATG.

Lewis is just under Holy, Larry, Louis, and Ali for ATGs in my book.

 

Both Holmes and Lennox didn't fight guys they should have. I'm much more familiar with Larry (since I met the guy in Easton during his reign). He beat future champions Weaver, Berbick, Witherspoon and Bonecrusher, crushed former undisputed HW Champion Leon Spinks at Leon's HW peak, used his jab to pound down and nearly ten count the first substantive CW Champion Ocasio (this is an underrated win, as Jaws had just decisioned Young twice, preparing Ossie as well as possible for a great HW jab at that moment in time), shut out Cobb in Houston, and Tex may have been the world's second best HW at that moment, dominated Norton so completely early on that Arthur Mercante declared live after ten rounds that Ken would need a knockout to win (and viewing the live broadcast, I agreed), for seven uninterrupted years he defended the title, and only the enforced holdup between Snipes and Cooney prevented him from getting to 50-0 (Larry Frazier between Snipes and Cooney would've gotten him there with Carl Williams).

A never exiled Ali would've surpassed Louis and Marciano long before Norton I would've posed a serious logistical surprise for him (Ken had Futch and the necessary overhand right Liston didn't have the body structure to develop for Lewiston - ironically, Norton couldn't throw a straight right to save his life either.) As for Louis, he had his own interrupted hiatus for WW II, but the shifty and feinting Bob Pastor and JJW demonstrated over a full decade's span that the Bomber was never really able to solve that trickery. Without WW II, somebody mobile gets him sometime during the mid 1940's, as he wasn't going to improve after Blackburn's death, and JJW was Blackburn's original preference as a protégé over Louis.

Stylistically, a rubber match between Louis and Schmeling would've been interesting. Max wouldn't have been charged out in one again, and in fact came back with a one round starching of his own before 70,000 Germans in a televised prewar return over Heuser to prove it. Louis was winning their first bout prior to Schmeling's initial KD, but Joe never proved he had an answer for Max's counter right aside from an opening round charge. Schmeling's stance was a precursor to Burley's, it was a style well suited for longevity, and hell, Charley just may have lifted it from Max after seeing him in the movie theaters.

Schmeling arrived in the eastern States and won Ring's FOTY at MSG around the same time Burley took up boxing at age 12. The German Dempsey look-alike was immensely popular after Risko, so the timing and their conservative counter punching styles makes it plausible. (Likewise, according to descriptions of Tiger Jack Fox, and his pugilistic upbringing by Bud Taylor, I strongly suspect wildly popular and well filmed Taylor rival Canzi. Of course Tiger Jack was highly regarded by victim JJW, and the world goes round.)

 

Holmes. He would never have been starched by McCall and Rahman, and at 40, handled Mercer far better than Lewis did.

 

How many ATG boxers did Holmes beat and how many ATG boxers did Lewis beat?

 

Holmes by miles. analyze their careers and watch their fights - it's not really close. Definitely Larry

 

Holmes fought the easiest fights he could possibly find and get away with. For Chrissakes, he managed to fight Alfredo Evangelista, Lorenzo Zanon and Lucien Rodriquez in title defenses, which tells you all you need to know about why he could never carry Lennox' jock.

Lewis was a real champion who fought tough fights. Larry scoured the ratings for soft touches and avoided anybody that was a legit threat. The only tough fights he ever had were when he accidentally underestimated presumed soft touches.

Lennox would beat Larry up from the inside or outside head to head too.

 

I love em both, rate em top 5, have Lewis at 3 and Larry at 4.

 

Vitali Klitschko was ever World Champion? That’s news to me.