Greater Light-Heavyweight : Greb or Tunney ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Jul 19, 2008.

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  1. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Who would you rate higher at 175 ?
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 19, 2008
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  2. TommyV

    TommyV Loyal Member banned

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    Tunney. Overall though Greb.
     
    TommyV, Jul 19, 2008
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  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    A tough one. Close. I think, given that Tunney dominated the series with Greb, he would have to rank higher.
     
    McGrain, Jul 19, 2008
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  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I dont think Tunney dominated the series.

    As I remember it (and better historians please correct me if I'm wrong),

    Greb battered Tunney in the first fight, beat him out of sight, gave him a horrendous beating.

    Tunney won a decision in the rematch and it was highly controversial.

    Tunney won the third, but it was no thrashing.

    The fourth was considered about even.

    The fifth Tunney won the fifth easily but it doesn't count for this discussion because Tunney weighed over 181 pounds, it's not part of the series to decide dominance as a light-heavy.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 19, 2008
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  5. klompton

    klompton Boxing Addict banned

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    Tunney got thrashed in the first fight.

    Won a robbery in second.

    Won the third legitimately.

    Lost the fourth.

    and won the fifth legitimately.

    He DID NOT dominate the series by any stretch of the imagination. Greb was the greater LHW having by far the more proven resume.
     
    klompton, Jul 19, 2008
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  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Calling the second fight a "Robbery" is ridiculous. The Pittsburgh papers all found for Greb. They ALWAYS found for Greb. The New York papers were literally split 50/50.

    One of the judges and the referee found if for Tunney.

    If you call it a robbery you must have film of the fight or absolute proof that when the New York Times describes the fight for Tunney noting that "the clean hitting and the better work came from Gene", it is lying for good reason - and meanwhile all the Pittsburgh newspapers are purer than the driven snow (Those boys ALWAYS found for Fritzie, too. Unless he was fighting another Pittsburgh fighter, like Burley).
     
    McGrain, Jul 19, 2008
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  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You said it not me.
     
    janitor, Jul 19, 2008
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  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Ok, so NY was for Tunney, and Pittsburgh was for Greb. This makes sense as they were backing their home town man. What did neutral sources say?
     
    Mendoza, Jul 19, 2008
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  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I consider the New York sources neutral. Around half found for Greb around half found for Tunney. If we leave the Pittsburgh papers alone - which may or may not be fair - we have a very, very, very close fight. A win for Greb may not have been unreasonable.

    But the officials thought otherwise.

    Why, oh why are there certain posters who are determined to call this a "robbery" when we have sources that says both won?

    BOXREC: "Most experts thought Tunney had the edge by his cleaner blows. Reggie Welsh of the Pittsburgh Post thought that Greb was robbed."

    Nice summary.

    But how the hell have so many since come to the same conclusion as Welsh?

    In answer to your quesiton, Mendoza, I don't have a run on any neutral sources...or my New York/Pittsburgh sources to hand.
     
    McGrain, Jul 19, 2008
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  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't even insist that Tunney won! I just want an explanation as to why people have become so sure that Greb "was robbed". Every time this fight comes up you get people roaring that he was robbed, but all they can generally produce are newspaper accounts - and guess what, there are newspaper accounts to the exact contrary.

    There has never once been an attempted explanation at motive for a robbery or proof casting doubt upon the officials.
     
    McGrain, Jul 19, 2008
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  11. Maxmomer

    Maxmomer Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Tunney won the series.
     
    Maxmomer, Jul 19, 2008
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  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think you should be put in charge of something important based upon this post.
     
    McGrain, Jul 19, 2008
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  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Perhaps Tunney won the series, but the fifth fight doesn't count towards who was the better LIGHT-HEAVY, since Tunney weighed in over 181 pounds.

    I think I was correct then in saying the second fight decision was highly controversial.

    And the fourth fight ? That's a split ND if I remember rightly. Some say draw.

    Seeing as Greb battered Tunney in the first fight, it just doesn't add up to Tunney "dominating the series" relating to light-heavywight.
    At least some would argue that Greb won 3 of their first 4, and MOST people concede he "arguably" won 2 out of 4.
    EVERYONE would concede he has the most one-sided victory of the 4 results, and that two of the other 3 results must have been close.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 20, 2008
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  14. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Greb gave away a ton to Gene and for most of the series was on the downward side of his career ... that being said I lean to Tunney anyway but it was for the most part supposed to have been incredible competitive till the last bout .... again, too bad there is no film of this exceptional series.

    Does anyone know if there were any recorded knockdowns?
     
    he grant, Jul 20, 2008
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  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    [FONT=&quot]Tunney was only down once in his entire career, and it took Dempsey’s best combination on film to do it.

    If anyone was knocked down in the series, it was likely Greb. I never read there were any knockdowns. One key point on why Greb won the first fight with Tunney is Greb there was a collision in round one between Greb's forehead into Tunney's nose and eyes, which created a great amount of discomfort for Tunney for the duration of the fight. Tunney lost a lot of blood. Many felt the fight should have been stopped, but Tunney sucked it up and went the distance. After the fight was over, Tunney was cheered.

    Under modern rules, this might have been a NC due to clash of heads. I do not think a punch from Greb could cause this type of damage in round one. Therefore, Greb's lone official victory needs to be put in perspective.

    That said, Greb was an amazing fighter. Jack Johnson who was not one to praise anyone due to his own ego called Greb the fastest fighter he has ever seen. Greb must have been great, because I've seen Tunney on film a few times, and he can in-fight or out fight well, move well, and had a few inches and pounds on the Pittsburgh windmill.

    [/FONT]
     
    Mendoza, Jul 20, 2008
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