greater Middleweight, Greb or SRR?

Your wrong again, if Robinson walked around at 165 he wouldnt have fought Maxim at 157 would he? Obviously if he fought Maxim weighing 157 he'd do the same against Charles/Moore. Greb was obviously naturally bigger than Robinson and had to drain to make weight, which in itself has pluses and minuses

 

:goodi'll bet robinson never weighed 165 till after he'd retired

 

have you ever seen any photos of robinson looking anything other than peak fit.obviously he wasn't always bang on but the man had 200 pro frights so when was he going to have time to be "off".

 

Well thats beside the point, Burt's insinuating Robby didn't take on the same challenges as Greb and was the same natural size. By the looks of things Robinson always looked a skinny guy who didnt blow up in weight, Marciano physically has that Ricky Hatton thing where he blows up in weight, if you look at both. That and the fact Robinson was fighting every 2 weeks and never went over 158

 

Greb in a way reminds me of Delahoya, pretty much fought everyone of his time but against the best came up pretty much 50-50 in some close fights. Yes he may not have been prime for some losses but some of his biggest scalps weren't prime when he fought them either, so it works both ways, Rosenbloom/Loughran were babes in arms, Tunney pre-prime and Mccoy/Chip all considered past prime and the Gibbons brothers on the downside of their career. Same as he may have given up weight to Tunney, Walker and Bartfield had similar weight disadvantages.

I'm not sure where you're getting the numbers for on lineal champions. The NYSAC didn't have a MW champion until '33 after Walker vacated. I'm also struggling to see the 7 lineal LHW champions, I count 5 LHW lineal champs, are you referring to titlists?

In terms of champions though the politics of the era were worse than today with Jock Malone knocking out the O'Dowd under the MW limit and never being called champ, while Wilson somehow got re-instated by NYSAC. The there was the Otke of his era McCoy constantly losing fights while champions only to cling on to his belt

 

1. Why state those examples if not a direct comparison

2. Yes he fought most of the best of his period from MW-LHW, no doubt about it, some of them prime, some past prime, some pre-prime. Everyone fought everyone back then, imagine if Hagler got a past it Monzon/Griffith, an 18yo Roy Jones/Hopkins, would it make him a better fighter?

3. Yes I do box but never with a patch over my eye. I have boxed competetively with injuries like torn rotator cuffs and managed to adapt with them though and actually fight aswell but not able to punch as hard/crisp with the affecting hand and sometimes fighting 1 handed. Granted this isnt the same as blindness but boxing is about adapting to a task to a large extent and

I'm sure Greb adapted his style to his blindness just as a fighter with a closed eye must adapt

4. It sounds like your getting overwhelmed with numbers. You need to focus on quality, which Greb still has bundles of, however against the very best his record is DelahoyaEsque winning/losing and having very close fights. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't make him the most dominant fighter of all times either

 

Why do you ignore the most OBVIOUS about the Greb legacy....?
He fought some of the greatest fighters in history who OUTWEIGHED
him by 10-50 pounds, time and again, and BEAT them in a 300 fight careerfighting almost WEEKLY !!!
Do you PP think tha NINETY years later, virtually every writer , historian,
and opponent of Harry Greb, who extolled his greatness, somehow knew
less than you do ?
Were those boxing experts somehow limited in their knowledge of talent
and conspired to laud the remarkable career of Greb, but somehow were
"correct" in their appraisal of Ray Robinson's talent ?
PP ,somehow , I trust the judgement of the boxing historians of Harry
Greb"s time, somewhat more than a modern revisionist almost a century
later...Harry Greb will survive todays naysayers, of that I'm convinced.!

 

1. He fought 1 great fighter who outweighed him significantly, the others who outweighed him significantly weren't great. Robinson too was outweighed by top fighters, you ignore that.

2. You like to talk about how people viewed fighters at the time, well guess what at the time writers rated both Fitzsimmons and Ketchel over Greb. I'm not saying Greb isn't great, he is, but he's just not as dominant against the best as people make him out to be.

3. I actually think Robinson too gets alittle overrated in his worship on here but he was clearly more dominant than Greb prime for prime if we look how both performed against their best opponents

4. Ahhh you trust the judgement of the boxing historians of Harry
Greb's time do you? So in that case you'll agree Ketchel and Fitz should be rated above Greb?

 

Robinson did not go middleweight till he was almost 30 .. the best fighter he beat was a Jake LaMotta who could not make weight ..no one rates Turpin, Fullmer, Olsen or Basilio as all time great middleweights ... also none of them presented the trouble of speed which Greb would in spades .. Ray was not able to hurt Joey Maxim who had a terrific chin ... Greb would likely take his best as well ...

Ray Robinson was an exceptional fighter ... the best all time 147 pounder, the best 154 pounder ... he was definately a top five or six middleweight which is saying a ton since it might be the most loaded division in boxing history ... however, to just hand him the all time great middleweight champ keys is a stretch ...Greb would give him all the troubles LaMotta and Fullmer did squared ... he was much faster, he hit as hard, he had the same chin, He was just as strong, he had better stamina ... it's a terrific match up ..

 

Well he beat Lamotta as a 21yo but didn't grow into the weight until he was 28-29. Robinson might not have beat a MW quite as good as Greb, but neither has Greb beat anyone nearly as good as Robinson

 

Whats bizzare about looking how a fighter deals with the very best when some herald him the best of all time, surely he should dominate his contemparies should he not?

The Tunney win is a stand out ATG win, but Tunney seemingly wasn't yet primed and was fouled early, in the subsequent fights it seems Tunney has a case to win them all but ofcourse some were close

Tommy Gibbons won the first 2 Greb fights when he was closer to his prime and not only beating him but 'giving him the beating of his life', and thats a prime Greb. The trajectory of his career indicates Gibbons was past prime there after. The third fight in a storm seemed a bit of a farce and seemingly had little in the way of witnesses but Greb won

Walker is an excellent win but he seemed to have problems with boxer types in every division he fought him, so while he managed to jump weights and fight bigger men remarkably well he always found certain styles kryptonite

As for Levenski, a good win no doubt but I'm not convinced he's a great fighter, good fighter with very good wins but consistantly lost to the best men of the period

 

No shame to be rated 3rd to Bob Fitzimmons and Stanley Kertchel...No shame indeed.!
I have posted this before-
As we cannot match Harry Greb against Ray Robinson in real life, I say
that I am convinced that Greb woulkd have surely licked everyone of Ray Robinson's opponents, but I am positive that Ray Robinson could never
have beaten these larger opponents of Harry's,such as---
Gene Tunney
Tommy Gibbons
Tommy Loughran
Jack Dillon
Battling Levinsky
Billy Miske
Gunboat Smith
Bill Brennan
Greb outweighed beat each one of these Light Heavies and Ray Robinson except for his one attempt against the Light hitting Joiey Maxim, NEVERtook on the big boys..Ray knew his limitations,as did his
astute mgr. George Gainsford...
On this basis I take Greb over Ray Robinson...Harry Greb wasw considered a "Ring Marvel" for a good reason...Because he was one!!!