Giardello This content is protected -or- Gavilan This content is protected ... Who was a more formidable fighter at his best? Who should be ranked higher? Including your reasoning would be appreciated.
Joey might be the more well rounded boxer but I wouldnt hesitate putting Gavilan in front of him in alltime rankings, I think he has the better overall record.
Basically the way I see it. Gavilan beat top guys in both his own weight class and the one above his, whereas Giardello didn't really go after LHWs; and for what it's worth, Gavvy had a more impressive and distinguished title reign. Interestingly, I'd say Gavvy did better against a number of their common opponents as well. For example, he beat Rocky Castellani and Joe Miceli, who Giardello lost to and drew with respectively; he completely trounced Billy Graham a year before a declining Graham beat Giardello; and I'd say he handled Gil Turner with less trouble than Giardello did. Giardello was a bigger puncher than Gavvy, but on the flipside I think Gavvy was quicker and slicker.
Saw both Kid Gavilan and Joey Giardello,and I believe Kid Gavilan as a welterweight accomplished more, in his class and above his division than Giardello...Both were "real pros", for sure...I have always felt a fighter who is succesful tackling bigger men,is a good way to determine a fighters historical standing...Therefore I choose Kid Gavilanover Giardello...But if Gavilan and Giardello hooked up at their best weight,I pick Giardello to triumph over the Kid...
Greater Ring General? To me, both had very similar auras: they had utter disdain for what their opponents could do to harm them, they were extremely confident and self-assured in their abilities to harm their opponents, and both didn't back down from a challenge and weren't easily intimidated. I think Gavilan was perhaps the better judge of doing what was needed to control a fight/er though. Joey, somewhat like James Toney, would sometimes allow himself to get outworked by vastly inferior fighters (talent wise) and would pay for it with a scratchy record, even though he'd end a fight without being hurt in the least and merely bristled through the other man's greater earnestness. Furthermore, sometimes his confidence because of his distinction in class from his opponents meant that he would fight a fighter on their terms and not do what was best for him to win a fight. When he was on, Joey could control fights by donning any mask he chose: brawler, boxer-puncher, pure boxer, whatever; there was no style he couldn't employ to befuddle a man. To me though, he wasn't nearly as consistent as Gavilan in governing the ring. Who was a more formidable fighter at his best? Close call. I'd probably say Gavilan because of his edge in athletic ability, but Giardello had all the skills imaginable and put on some beautiful displays when inspired. Who should be ranked higher? Gavilan quite clearly imo. More dominant in the sense that he was more consistent and did better work above his peak weight as well. I have been on a Gavilan boner for the last couple of months and so I may be talking with bias here, but stripping away all the bull**** decisions from his record, I think he has a case for being a top 10 p4p fighter all time.
SS basically comprehensivly summed up my thoughts. One thing I would add is that Gavilan would be a more formiddable opponent, I think the pace he could force upon his opponents in a bout and his accurate counter-punches would result in more punishment for his opponents, although not necessarily any better resuluts
Don't know if i really should factor the word 'greater' in here, but i do think that Giardello was a bit more of a ring general in general (pardon the pun). Gavilan was the better fighter though for me. In terms of overall it's very very close, but i can see that's not really the question.
Great post ss, mirrors my thoughts exactly. Two cagey, ultra tough pros with gavilan taking the edge in hand speed and overall athleticism. Other intagibles like power and durability are neck and neck. i think joey was slightly craftier, as he had less physical gifts than gavilan but was able to perform well against the top middles of a very tough era. the last couple years of his title reign he was running on fumes and experience to guide him past tough contenders like 'hurricane' carter, id compare a 60s giardello to a 70s ali. best middle from philly Id say. gavilan takes it overall, higher consistency against superior comp doesnt lie. gavilan higher p4p as well for his success at higher weight whereas joey was a solid middle throughout his entire career.
Excellent replies. More are always welcome... Here's another one I'd appreciate input on... This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected Who was a more formidable fighter at his best? Who should be ranked higher? Including your reasoning would be appreciated.
That's a really good question. Yeah, yeah I do. Giardello likes to control the fight with the left hand, in my opinion, and I don't think that's a very good idea against Gavlian in my opinion. He comes inside, hits you very hard, he was adept at it, it's in part how he took out Cartier, and although Giardello would go on to dominate Cartier in their series, he didn't beat him as convincingly as KG the first time. KG was adept with the bigger men and their punches didn't take him off his line. I think he could win a close one, yeah.
I agree with that. I'm not too up to speed on Giardello so I cant really comment too much in this topic/thread. The KO over Cartier is brutal. Also from what I have seen, I think Gavilan has the better jab and left hand overrall. Giardello has better movement but Gavilan has quicker feet and can cut off a ring very well. Like you say I see Gavilan getting inside Giardello's left hand and getting his own left hand off to start up combiantions. But I think Giardello's movement could offset Gavilan's ability to get inside at times. Also the Ortiz qeustion is very interesting. Who was a more formidable fighter at his best? I would have to say Ortiz. With Ortiz he is a very good boxer and he looks to measure his opponent for weaknesses and just generally to figure them out. Once he has his opponent figured out he ups the pace and pressure of the bout and cleanly takes them apart, essentially what any Boxer-Puncher looks to do. A good example is the way he feels out Joe Brown with the jab and slowly takes him apart. Another good one is the Battling Torres fight where he finds the range in his right hand and starts to crank up the pressure. Giardello had already been described excellantly by SS and I cant really add much more, due to my lack of knowledge on him but from what I have seen I agree entirely with SS. I prefer Ortiz's sustained and cumulative aggresion to make him a much more formiddable fighter. Who should be ranked higher? I think Ortiz is one of the finest Lightweights who ever lived. His reign was very impressive and if you add this to his tenure as Lightwelterweight champion, you really do have an excellant fighter. I would rate him higher. It must be said though, I do think Ortiz is the 'better' fighter but not by too much, and I enjoy watching each guy equally.
But keep in mind that Cartier was winning the fight with Gavilan until Gavvy surged on late. Cartier to me is a very similar type fighter as Giardello, only without the iron chin. I think it's conceivable that Joey could keep Gavvy at bay the way Cartier did, and the Kid wouldn't be able to pull this one out with a KO. Incidentally, Gavvy and Giardello were good friends and sparring partners, which is likely why they never fought, despite being being active right at the same time.
