Greatest bareknuckle fighter of all time (head to head)

Perhaps more interestingly to people would be that this assumed 'evolution of science' is not entirely so. Belcher for instance was a far superior pugilist to Cribb who reiled on his physical strength, drubability and 'bottom' (old terming for courage). Very different fighter.

Belcher was credited with stooping his head, shifting his weight (making 'retrograde movements'), attacking to the body, using both hands and even parrying and then attacking with the same hand on more than one occasion.

Clearly Belcher was a bit of a wizard in the ring. There was great reason for why he was known as 'The Napolean of the ring'.

 

From what I have seen, I concur. However, I haven't seen more than what youtube has and what my patience can stand. I certainly would not want to get into a street fight with these guys. However, as rules are implemented, their tactics and skills seem like they would be less effective.

I thought, perhaps, someone had some insight that might sway my view.

 

Can't overlook Jack Broughton whom many consider the "Father of modern Boxing". Gee I wonder why I'd pick him?

 

Philo Beddoe aka Clint Eastwood, Every Which Way But Loose, Any Which Way You Can

As for ones who are real, anybody ever hear of Micheal Gordon Petersen, aka Charles Bronson, infamously thought of as Britain's worst inmate?

 

:rofl:roflatsch

 

Frank Warren the promoter started with unlicensed boxing ,he stated that Mclean was an average fighter.I imagine most would put him at the top of the unlicensed boys ,so perhaps that puts them in to perspective as regards ,the old time bare knucklers like Mendoza,Mace Cribb,Jackson Belcher etc?
How are we to rate the old timers?
I have a couple of books on them ,including ,Bells Fights For the Championship.With a fighter like Greb for instance ,we can get a line on his abilities by looking at who he beat ,often on film, but with those I mentioned we cannot even use that comparison.Guys like Heenan for example, how many fights did he have?.Its a fascinating subject ,but not one that I think you can draw any firm conclusions from.
On a side note an old fella who used to be my Father's drinking partner, was descended from Tom Cribb,in fact he had the same name,and his Uncle had Cribb's pocket watch,and fob chain.

 

I have to be honest, head to head, i really cant go past John L Sullivan. He has a ko punch better than anyone who fought previously. I think his is as strong as any previous fighter and probably as fast. He has proved that he can go as long as it takes in a bareknuckle fight and his chin seems as tough as any of his predecessors. His training regime is also up there with all before him. I think that John L stands head and shoulders above all in a head to head sense. To beat him, i think that you need to go to the more modern fighters that came after him, Jeffries, Tyson, Liston, Ali, Foreman etc though these guys are an unknown quantity, due to not having any recorded bareknuckle fights against fighters with any sort of ability, although i suppose Tyson may be the exception with his effort against Mitch Green.

 

If you're referring to wearing gloves then the disadvantage pugilists faced had much to do with adaptation, not so much superiority. But as you pointed out yourself, the talent pool was waning at that point.

Corbett's victory over Sullivan is often used as the benchmark to show that a new breed of 'science' was beginning to get the better of the old guard, when in that particular case, Sullivan's poor condition left him up the creak without a paddle. Ironically Sullivan was fantastic, but not one of the slicker Bare Knuckle fighters.

Even before Belcher, Mendoza was bringing the finer points to pugilism, as did John Jackson. All of these men trained and watched their diets.

In reply to one of your earlier questions, the best of Bristol would have likely beaten Mace in a London Prize Rule fight. They were, to put it bluntly, bigger and better.

 

I couldn't resist this question, so...


First thing to note: Corbett wasn't a "modern" boxer. The style he used was almost identical to the bareknucklers before him, and in many ways he represents one of the best examples of the late bareknuckle science.


Sullivan vs. Belcher

This debate seems to be boiling down to Belcher vs. Sullivan, which I would generally agree with. Even with one eye, Belcher almost smashed Cribb and nealry did the same to Pearce as well. Sullivan, on the other hand, came in at the dawn of the gloved era and is one of the most "modern"--as well as one of the largest--of the bareknucklers. The fact that he has over thirty attested fights (although only three of them were bareknuckled) compared to only a few for most of the earlier champions certainly helps his case as well. On the other hand, there were probably many unrecorded fights during the Georgian and Regency periods.



Records

Their records can be found here:

SULLIVAN
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/sully.htm

BELCHER
http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/belcher-jem.htm



Fight Reports

Fortunately, Sullivan and Belcher actually have a lot of information available about their styles. Belcher's fight reports can be found in Boxiana(http://books.google.com/books?id=9Y...ontcover&dq=boxiana&as_brr=1&client=firefox-a) and Pugilistica (http://books.google.com/books?id=ulICAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pugilistica&client=firefox-a)



As To Training...

Belcher was smaller, and training during the early days was certainly more primitive and unhealthy (though Sullivan's trainers weren't exactly top-of-the-line by today's standards either...). Information about training from Belcher's era can be found in the manual I'm posting below. I can't find anything on Sullivan's training on short notice, but I'm sure it's available in his biographies. If you want a general idea of the type of training practiced in that period by professionals, check out Billy Edwards' book, available for FREE download on Lulu.com: http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/the-art-of-boxing-and-manual-of-training/1180916. This one might also have something: http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/boxing-and-wrestling/4717836.







Now then....


Pearce's Style

The best idea we can get of Pearce's style is found in the writings of people who copied his style afterwards. The only manual I can find is located here (you need a yahoo account to access it).

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4LJtSuNdvg6N3aE3XxHXuE4kcvQV5hOogiqWetAPslcMAhfZRCDbNx8FRBExrs-7xorDoH-rIdoStBWzYfg12OoXd40TJtfOli23cYRh9k2M/Broken%20Heart%20School%20of%20Arms/ArtAndPracticeOfBoxing.PDF

Note that his stance is actually more "modern" (which does not necessarily imply that it's better) than Sullivan's. Also note the unusual wrestling techniques and locks that were pretty well integrated into the system.




Sullivan's Film

Sullivan's the second fighter with JUST enough film and photographs that we can get an acceptable idea of his style (Billy Edwards, with his manual and 20 seconds of Edison film, is the first).

The only film available on him is located here:

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Sullivan in Action: Illustrations Taken From Photographs

...But we also have other avenues of exploration. James Boyle O'Reilly's ETHICS OF BOXING AND MANLY SPORTS has illustrations that are (I think) taken from photographs of Sullivan in action. Think of them as freeze-frames for his fights. Careful, though: there are a few illustrations that are also taken from Billy Edwards, but usually O'Reilly is careful to note when a technique is illustrated "as Sullivan throws it".

http://books.google.com/books?id=EPEWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA11&dq=boxing&lr=&as_brr=1&client=firefox-a

Incidentally, O'Reilly's book also has a section on training.


Sullivan in Action: Photographs (Part I)

Finally, there are the photographs from Sullivan vs. Kilrain. In order to facilitate discussion, I'll post the link to the photographs AND the photographs themselves as images on this page. Hopefully the latter doesn't run into technical difficulties.

The Links
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_-_Kilrain_Fight
http://www.antekprizering.com/photoarchiveimagesullkil.html

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"Seventh round: Kilrain again locks his arm around Sullivan's neck, but goes under as in the fourth round."

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"Fifteenth round: Sullivan plants a terrific left-hander on Kilrain's damaged ribs as he goes down."

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"Twenty-third round: Sullivan hits Kilrain a terrific right-hander in the region of the heart and Kilrain, falling forward, attempts to clinch."

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"Seventy-fifth round: The knock-out blow. Sullivan hits Kilrain a moderate blow on the chest and Kilrain goes down for the last time."

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Geez, Sullivan looks pissed...

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"1st round, Kilrain throws Sullivan"

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"Sullivan throwing Kilrain"

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"Kilrain knocked through the ropes."

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"After a fall - Picking up the men."

 

Hey man, long time no see. How are you?

 

Sullivan vs. Kilrain Photographs, Part II

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Sullivan Forming the Maltese Cross with Kilrain and Handlers before the Fight No. 3042

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Sullivan v. Kilrain Round One No. 3084

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Sullivan v. Kilrain Round Two. No. 3048

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Sullivan and Kilrain in a Clinch. No. 3050

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Sullivan v. Kilrain. Kilrain Down. No. 3062

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Sullivan v. Kilrain. Round Seven. No. 3063

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Sullivan and Kilrain Being Carried to Their Corners Between Rounds No. 3077

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Sulllivan v. Kilrain. No. 3081

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Sullivan v. Kilrain. Round Fifteen. No. 3082

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Sullivan v. Kilrain Round Six. No. 3085

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Sullivan v. Kilrain. Sullivan Throws Right. No. 3091