Guys, awhile ago I let out an exhaustive sigh. If I read another one of these Rocky Marciano v Elvis or Muhammad Ali v Moses type threads I will go stir crazy. I want something thought-provoking like St. Pat's "Greatest rounds" thread last summer that ran awhile and made us all think. And I do get a bit fed up reading about the DeLaHoyas and the Leonards and the Tysons. So I alighted on this thread on the unsung heroes of boxing, which I will run through 11 weight classes, if we have willing participants. The premise is simple, name your 15 greatest contenders in each weight class (but let's do it one class at a time). The rules are, they must have competed at the weight and never won a World, WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO, NBA or NYSAC recognized title at the selected weight. Also, since I am not recognizing Straw, jr. fly, super fly, super bantam, super middle or cruiser, the champions and contenders in the omitted classes are eligible at the higher weight. If they did move up and win that respective title like Roman Gonzalez, they are ineligible as a contender. Easy enough? Please ask if I glided over something. Lastly, don't sweat any order, I'm certainly not. Just give me your best 15 and let's use our heads and research. Oh, and one more thing. Let's have some fun. I will start with my choice of flyweight contenders. And feel free to debate a selection if you wish. -Tancy Lee -Joe Curran -Jimmy Warnock -Bunty Doran -Leo Espinosa -Halimi Gutierrez -Fernando Cabanela -Ignacio Espinal -Luis Estaba -Yoko Gushiken -Martin Vargas -Jung Koo Chang -Chiquita Gonzalez -Michael Carbajal -Ricardo Lopez
Cool idea, Scar. 15 might be steep, but I'll give it a go. It is of course inevitable that we come out with a lot of the same choices, so: Jung Koo Chang, Myung-Woo Yuh, Yoko Gushiken, Chiquita, Carbajal, Tancy Lee, Joe Curran, Jimmy Warnock Bunty Doran, Leo Espinosa, Halimi Gutierrez, Fernando Cabanela, Ignacio Espinal, Martin Vargas, Willie Davies and Gustavo Ballas. Ballas was the only one I was umming and ahing at, as I don't know if he was ever actually rated at flyweight. But I do know that he beat Alfonso Lopez, Rafael Pedroza and Santos Laciar, so that's good enough for me.
I don’t understand how Tancy Lee doesn’t count as a champion. He didn’t win any of the titles you mentioned because none of them existed. The IBU title he held made him THE champion of the world, no?
Nice idea matey, but like George has said, there will be lots of the same names if we go with 15 ! is it too late to condense to the top 3 or 5 maybe, so we have to really give the topic some thought ? also not keen on people researching , that way my 10 year old grandson would be able to come up with fighters, and its a Google led site, make sense ?
George, I think Yuh, Davies and Ballas are excellent picks. And I wouldn't fret too much on the Ballas thing. This is very loose. Perhaps Ballas may or may not have garnered a rating at fly before going super fly, but he was there and doing well. Aside from those you mentioned that he beat at 112, he also beat Rodolfo Rodriguez and Rigoberto Marcano. I think Ballas is a brilliant choice.
Bujia, I wanted to rein in some of these titles that have populated the sport by every money-grabbing promoter through the ages. When you look at it, I have recognized a lot with World, WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO, NBA and NYSAC titles. I drew the line and did not include spurious Interim, White, Colored, IBU, BBBC, World titlists recognized by states (other than NY) or singular countries or any titlists south of WBO (such as IBO, WBU, etc.). I think we would have nobody for our list here. IBU was a conundrum, but I was amazed when reading many ancient articles back in the day on a fighter, how their IBU title wasn't even mentioned. Even back then it wasn't regarded as anything. So in order to hold the line, this is how I formed the rules. But, look at it this way. Tancy Lee is getting more text here right now than he's gotten in ages. He was a brilliant little fighter in the Jimmy Wilde era who is getting his due as a great contender.
Mike, this is what separates us from the casual fan. That boxing lore running threw our heads. I was originally going to do 10 but it kept growing and I didn't want to leave anyone out. Also, I really do want to do something that makes us think rather than come up with something off the top of our heads. If you do have a lot of repeats, that's cool. It means we were all on the same page and were impressed by what we saw or read. Again, it's about having fun with a subject matter that is not often bandied about. So give me your best 15 and have fun doing it.
Some good names put forward here. Id also put Ramon Arias’ name forward and if Tancy Lee doesn’t count as a champion, there’s also Joe Symonds. Sid Smith too.
Chris, I think Arias, Symonds and Smith are outstanding choices. Can you do 15? If not, no worries, still great picks.
Ramon Arias Tancy Lee Joe Symonds Sid Smith Leo Espinosa Sadao Yaoita Fernando Cabenela Jung Koo Chang Ricardo Lopez Orlando Amores Chiquita Gonzalez Michael Carbajal Yoko Gushiken Martin Vargas Rosendo Álvarez
Well, not the response I was hoping for. Perhaps flyweights are not everyone's cup of tea. At least that's what I'm hoping for. My God, I have counted no less than 13 "Who would win between..." topics on the front page of Classic. Have we been taken over by the Casuals who have no perception of boxing lore? This is Classic! We are more cerebral than that. Still, we have numbered 24 fighters whom we believe are some of the most outstanding flyweights who had never won the 112 lb. title. And they should be remembered for that. Hopefully this thread will continue to populate as I move on to bantamweight.
Feels kind of weird to have guys like Chang and Lopez on the list. Though technically meeting the criteria, they're hall of famers. They're not ex-contenders who run the risk of being forgotten nowadays simply because they didn't win the fly title. Some guys who might be worth a mention: Fritz Chervet: Longtime Euro fly champ considered Switzerland's best ever. Career peak might have been losing via SD to Chionoi for the world title. Only one win listed for him outside of his home country, though. Pablito Jimenez: This is an odd one, as Boxrec has him with a career record of 8-10. I think that's probably an incomplete listing, but even in what's shown for him the former Dominican flyweight champ did some things. Beat the already-listed Ignacio Espinal and Luis Estaba, took away Guty Espadas' zero, and lost a tough SD to Miguel Canto in Canto's hometown. He seems to be remembered quite fondly by those who do remember him, and I've seen it written that he has a win over Betulio Gonzalez and that he knocked down Canto three times in their fight (I don't necessarily believe these things). Antoine Montero: Spanish-born, French-based Euro champ who was a bit like Martin Vargas. He was good enough to receive multiple world title shots, but had the misfortune of getting them against men the likes of Santos Laciar and Gilberto Roman. Also had a chance against Gabriel Bernal for the WBC title. That belt had changed hands in each of the eight previous times it was defended, but Bernal became the first boxer in three years to retain it when he stopped Montero in a tough fight.
Clum, I know what you mean about having Chang and Lopez here, but really, they should have tested themselves fully by going for the big title rather than go for the low-hanging fruit. I'm not going to knock them entirely. If I was a fighter and I was making money with an 'easier' title (shall we say), I'd likely do the same. It's economics, I won't question their heart, but I will question their manager's heart. On the flip side of the coin, there would be no reason for me to try and make a list of 15 great contenders from Straw and Jr. fly or some of the other divisions I omitted. The reason is, they all came around in the multi-titled era, so the divisions were thin to begin with and then anyone with a bit of talent picked up a strap, which eliminates them from this endeavor. So the end result would be absolutely paltry. We would be including club-fighters in a list of 15. Regarding the fighters you mentioned, I remember them all and I think they are great additions. I remember Chervet fighting Chionoi down to the wire in their rematch after losing their first fight on suspect circumstances (I think there was a butt involved). Pablito I remember from the 1973 annual Ring, which went through an array of top contenders in each division and he was mentioned. And you're right, he quite clearly had many more fights that what is presently recorded. Also, Antoine Montero was like you say, that hard luck fighter who always seemed to draw a top man. Great additions, and feel free to give a full list.
The greatest flyweight contenders never to have won the title, as deemed by the Classic Forum (always open for further additions). -Tancy Lee -Joe Symonds -Sid Smith -Willie Davies -Joe Curran -Jimmy Warnock -Bunty Doran -Leo Espinosa -Sadao Yaoita -Ramon Arias -Orlando Amores -Halimi Gutierrez -Fernando Cabanela -Fritz Chervet -Ignacio Espinal -Pablito Jimenez -Luis Estaba -Yoko Gushiken -Martin Vargas -Antoine Montero -Gustavo Ballas -Jung Koo Chang -Chiquita Gonzalez -Michael Carbajal -Myung Woo Yuh -Ricardo Lopez -Rosendo Alvarez
