Greatest exhibition of skill: Ali-Frazier I or Holyfield-Bowe I?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, Oct 14, 2010.


  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What do you say? Please include some kind of definition of "skill" in your answer.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Bowe-Holyfield.

    Two complete skillsets.
     
  3. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    I haven't decided on my pick yet, but I'd like to post this awesome Bowe-Holyfield I tribute video made by PetethePrince.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPdmAI30oOs[/ame]
     
  4. johnmaff36

    johnmaff36 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It wasnt called F.O.T.C. for nothing. This fight had everything with a career defining performance by Joe, not to mention Ali more than playing his part with his late surge. The 3rd fight,quite rightly, gets lauded as one of the most gruelling fights of all time but the first was more skilled IMO. Holy-Bowe was a good scrap too but not as good skillwise or otherwise as F.O.T.C.
     
  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, there's no doubt that this was the greater exhibtion of overall textbook skill with sound fundamentals. But even though both Ali and Frazier were unorthodox they were still very skillful IMO. They had their respective styles down to a tee, and were very smooth and rhytmical in their movements in a way that Bowe and Holy weren't.

    So it's down to that elusive definition of "skill". Joe's bob and weave is not really part of a fundamentally sound technical defense (too energy consuming), but he did it very well and it worked for him. So to what degree is that skill?
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This is the key point that seems to cause all the consternation on the board. It's to do with specialisation. For me, there's no confusion, the broadest skillsets belong to the more skilful fighters.
     
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, that's a valid viewpoint. You could also argue that great skill in some areas is just as good as good skill in many areas if it gives the same results.

    EDIT: And then we also have things like anticipation of the opponents moves, "radar", sense of positioning, timing and ability to stay relaxed etc. These aren't really technical skills in that sense, but still skills.
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I'm wary about factoring in results when judging skill. It seems to me that this immediately turns the argument into one about who is best, which is not the same thing at all.
     
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ok, let's phrase it like this then: Fighter A is super skilled in categories A and B, but only average in categories C, D and E. Fighter B has good skills in all categories. Seen over the five categories they have the same skill in average. Does this mean they are equally skilled or not?

    A second point is the "EDIT" in my last post. There are skills that aren't technical skills but still skills. They should somehow be a part of the whole package as well, I think. Or are they to define as "abilities" rather than "skill"?
     
  10. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A related question is, who was the most skilled version of Ali? The one in FOTC or the one in Manilla? The younger version was faster and smoother, but the older version fought a more sound fight in terms of fundamentals and exhibited a somewhat more varied skillset (fighting on the inside against Joe).
     
  11. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    No fight since the FOTC compares to the FOTC..or the "skill sets" that it was composed of.
     
  12. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    You're forgetting Frazier in all this...Frazier was depleted and an inferior version of himself compared to the FOTC.
     
  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm not talking about results, just some things Ali did better in Manilla. Overall he was better in FOTC, though.
     
  14. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well said. The Ali of the second fight combined the best of the Muhammads from fights 1 & 3.
     
  15. Raskolnikov

    Raskolnikov Guest

    Frazier-Ali 1. His performance eclipsed that of Bowe's, as I see it. Frazier's performance in the FOTC is one of the greatest hw performances of all-time. He fought a perfect fight for someone who fights in that style, considering the standard of the opponent it was a true exhibition of quality, his accuracy was exceptional. Bowe fought extremely well vs Holyfield too, but ultimately he outmuscled a much smaller and lighter man on the inside.