Greatest H2H Middleweight of all time (Poll)

This.

Greb's resume forces us to consider the possibility that he might have been the head to head GOAT.

 

Okay but we're talking the all time H2H MW conversation. The more exclusive conversation the stricter you get to find flaws others don't have. It doesn't matter how fair it is it matters that Like how I hold Grebs losses against him when people are calling him the P4P GOAT but am not doing it here.

Canelo was 23 he was also a 42-0 champ with 6 title defenses. This is the reverse of people crying about a dominant undefeated champ losing because he was "washed" and has a 3 next to his age. If he was so washed he wouldn't have been the champ for 6 fights. Foreman, Louis, Ali, Tyson the most dominant champs historically tend to be early 20s. Yes Canelo was green and didn't have the experience he later would.

Non MW feats are hugely relevant to which of these fighters we'd pick to win H2H. Guy lost to best guy below and above others did not have that experience.

I agree about incoporating tweener divisions into the parent division. Doesn't change my mind about Canelos H2H ranking. Hes a MW great and theres quite a few MW greats I wouldn't pick him to beat. A lot of his big wins are against WW greats using that same logic and he beat them when they were old and they gave him more trouble then they should have. Great generation of WWs respect him a lot for beating fighters I grew up but I'm not going to pick Canelo to beat Bernard Hopkins, RJJ, Greb, Hagler, SRR etc because he beat Cotto, Mosley and Khan. JCC Jr at the end of the day lost to a 46 year old retired UFC fighter(in a boxing match) when he was only 35 years old. JCC Jr wasn't terrible or anything but beating him is not a feat that helps in all time MW talks.

 

Poll forgot to add Bob Fitzsimmons as well.

 

Some of these guys are not even real middleweights Roy Jones Junior at his best would die on the way to the ring if he had to be 160lbs on fight night, GGG is a LHW.

 

The LHW who got it over Canelo one time?

 

Canelo has probably been a SMW-LHW his entire career. I don’t think he’s ever fought at 155lbs-160lbs close to his prime on fight night.

 

McCallum is the guy I'd pick to beat everyone else, if I really have to make that decision.

 

Non MW feats matter. They matter a lot cause everyone in this conversation did well at MW or they wouldn't be in it. Limiting this to just MW doesn't really help Canelo. Ketchel was killed right after his 24th birthday and has more MW title defenses than Canelo. If Ketchel had a full career he might be the MW GOAT. Ketchel had a 94% KO rate was competitive with Sam Langford and fought for the HW title.


Canelos legacy at 160 is the GGG and Jacobs fights which were close. The other opponents all cut their teeth at 154 and/or 147. Despite this at MW Canelo has 2 KOs in his 7 MW title fights and 3 KOs in his 9 major MW fights. 4 of his 6 decisions were close. I don't know what about that is compelling to compare him with the best MW greats. Cottos a legend but not a MW one one really.

 

Head to head Marvin Hagler in my mind.
BUT! Certain styles would give him hell. A could beat him.
Fighters that depended on power and aggression ( Most Middleweights considered ATG's ) Hagler would feast on , like Greb , Walker, Tiger, Zale, Etc.
But fighters that could out manurver him, make him over think. Like Robinson, Jones Jr, and a fighter not considered great, but had ATG ability like Michael Nunn, could beat him.
Monzon would be too slow of hand and foot in my opinion. " Triple G. And especially "Canelo " Alvarez I don't consider ATG 's personally, And in my opinion Hagler would beat the hell out of both of them.
As most historic ATG's middleweights would.
Those two are more a product of weak competition ( Triple G) and selective match making ( Alvarez) than fighters that are actually ATG's.

 

But who did he actually beat at MW? Dempsey who was almost done? A bunch of local yokels in Australia. And Jim Hall KO'd him there. I feel like his greatness (and I rank him very high P4P) came later.

I feel like Micky Walker would be a better protest vote.

 

Hi Flash.
Very well thought out post ( as per usual ) and you make some salient points, from the list provided I too would pick Hagler, my feeling is he would be too mobile and quick footed for the rather slow and predictable Monzon, tight fight tho, with Hagler a clear points victor, where we part company is the part about him " feasting " on Greb, I see it the other way round, also ( if i may ) Harry certainly didn't depend on power, and yes he was aggressive, but there was more to his style than that, as I have described on the forum countless times, so a Greb win for me.
stay safe buddy, always enjoy your input, you know your stuff.

 

He did beat Hall twice though, also beat Creedon, McCarthy, and a version of Nonpareil Dempsey that was still pretty formidable.

 

Who did Hall ever beat? A bunch of kangaroo chasers? We all know his name because he faced other names we know, but he rarely beat them, except he did beat Fitz. And Nonpareil had three fights over four years remaining in his career and only won one of those. I do believe that consumption had taken control of him.

I'm not selling Bob short. I have him as a Top 10 pound for pound great. But his best work was done after 160.

 

Beat Choynski and Slavin, though Choynski in just a 4 rounder. Some say the Slavin fight was a fix but it does seem like Hall just rocked him early and Slavin never recovered.

I feel like the slip of Dempsey had been a bit exaggerated, he beat McCarthy right before fighting Fitz and also beat him again 3 years later right before losing to Ryan. McCarthy wasn’t a slouch himself, he knocked out Ted White who beat a prime Kid McCoy.

 

I think Monzon- he’s got that brilliant boxing mind and he’s almost like a Swiss Army knife in that he can adapt to any style. Add in his dimensions, stamina, power and chin and you get a very formidable middleweight