Greatest P4P boxer of all time?

Floyd is superior.

 

@Mark Dunham

Yes, Duran is the most skilled fighter ever.

Most people tend to think of Duran's skill level being his ridiculous inside game, and how he got there. He was proficient in all areas, and was a masterful, multifaceted technician. The old cliché that "Duran was better at everything than everyone" didn't come from nothing.

Duran's jab gets underrated. There were fights where it was absolutely astounding, and fights where he didn't use it much at all. Vs Thompson, Hagler, DeJesus (III), and Leonard (I), it was absolutely incredible. The way he consistently used it to control Leonard's strategies; drawing shots; force him back and cut off exits. There's a sequence just before he hurt Leonard with that big overhand, where he backed Leonard into the ropes and went to the body when Leonard didn't take the bait; and hurt him badly when he did. As a boxer-puncher performance, it was absolutely spot on vs DeJesus. Thompson didn't know whether he was coming or going as Duran used it to set up his uppercuts. Hagler was literally dumbfounded by it, having to question his corner on why he was getting caught every time he threw his jab; Duran's 'coiling' lead-hand counter in that fight being one of the finest examples of a fighters ring IQ which you'll ever see.

He was an absolute master at feinting. Breaking stances, scaring people into covering up the wrong area. Almost his entire inside game came from his use of feints, as he used a fighters broken stancd and misplaced hands to tie them up and weave his way to his 'sweet spot' and work from there. He had Ray Leonard stuttering his movement with nothing but head-movement, as the threat of Duran getting upclose was so strong, Leonard stopped everything he was doing to prevent; which obviously, led to it happening more. His fight with Moore is actually almost laughable in regards to how far Duran could push Moore with his feints. He made a prime, physical monster in a weight 20lbs above his own flinch with every movement of his glove. There was actually a point where Duran had him so worried of what would happen if he committed to something, that he stepped back and broke his stance when Duran made a fist. His constant shifting and body language led to some nasty set-ups. For instance, take the KDs vs Moore and Barkley. Or the uppercut in the third vs Thompson.

These counters are precisely why those feints were so effective. Duran was a master counter-puncher, and tended to spend the first few rounds of most fights sitting back and seeing what he was dealing with; using that jab, and looking to find those counters. The pair of backhands which put down Jimmy Robertson being perfect examples of these horrifying, but clean and effective counters.

Duran's footwork developed over time to suit his legs, it had to become more economical and minimalist, as he didn't have the energy to frantically chase after the younger guys. In his later years, he used his feet to sucker people in, letting them do the hardwork of making it an infight; but in his prime, Duran's feet were everything. As mentioned, Duran as lightweight champion tended to spend the first couple of rounds boxing, using his feet to box in a tight circle so he could look for counters and see what he was dealing with. In the instances where a fighter was aggressive enough to try and force Duran against the ropes, Duran would let them get so far, then pull the rug out from underneath, using an old trick of Willie Pep's to spin them onto the ropes with a triangle step, then a quick L-step followed by a pivot. Keeping your hand on their lower back to lock them in place tended to add insult to injury, but certainly worked. From there, he could burrow into them like a mole in soil. The other primary use of his feet - and the obvious one - was to track down his man. His ring-cutting was so ingrained into him, that he started doing it before the ref had finished breaking them up. Taking centre-ring, and cross stepping before the ref says box, leaving them less and less room to breathe. He also shifted into southpaw then back to orthodox, bobbing and weaving under combos and coming crashing into the opponent's body, rapidly letting his hands uncoil to grapple round his opponents while they're smothered on the ropes. And the fact this worked vs Sugar Ray Leonard should be sufficient proof to show how well it worked.

Duran's bodywork at mid-range tended to rely on a principle of 'pendulum' power, where the constant weight shifting brought his weight back to centre while letting the power transfer with momentum. This let him avoid punches, move in, and build power during fluid combinations. His short, stabbing hooks to the body look tortuous, the ones he puts everything into look even worse. He knew the anatomy well, targeting the liver, kidneys, floating ribs and sternum and knowing what effect each area would have on the fighter. There wasn't a punch in the book Duran couldn't throw right, but his favourites were clearly his backhand, right uppercut and shovel hooks to the body. His tight, wicked uppercut was prepped similarly to Benny Leonard; a trick learned from Ray Arcel. But the longer verison he used for real, one-shot power was magnificent. The best example of it coming vs Leoncio Ortiz, where he shifted in, slipped a punch then whipped the right uppercut in, stopping Ortiz in the 15th.

His defensive radar was awesome. Despite being an incredibly aggressive fighter, he was extremely difficult to hit. He had a bag of defensive techniques at his disposal, but his two most prominent were the jab-and-roll, where he wove inward after jabbing, and neckrolls, where he turned his head with a punch to either make it miss by millimetres, or merely brush against his chin. Duran's head-movement was masterful, as he knew every trick in the book, had great 'eyes' and was always in position to get away with what he wanted without losing balance. His defence upclose is unparalleled. He used positioning to keep his head safe, finding a spot where they couldn't connect with any real force, normally either on their blindside with a collar tie, or on their shoulder. Since this obscured his own vision, he had to rely on his arms to both defend his body, attack, and act his defensive radar. He relied on an absence of touch to let him know an opponent was punching, as soon as they disconnected, Duran threw whatever he felt was the shortest punch he could land. Normally it was a short uppercut either to the head or sternum.

Duran didn't just stay in one spot though when he was inside. He constantly changed headslots, moving between two or three safe positions as to stop the referee from breaking. Doing this lets him build that pendulum power back, albeit at a shorter range. It also lets him exert head control, as he uses his shoulders, head and forearms to move the opponent's head around. The best example of Duran using infighting as a form of ring generalship is against Palomino, where he essentially tied him in knots. It's movements like stuffing collar ties with his forearms, shifting his opponents weight back a fraction with his shoulders, causing their base to break and hold to fail, or simply using his elbows to pry open a guard while also inconspicuously loading his shots. His positioning led to safety up close, and let him attack without warning.

Duran played with rhythm like few fighters I've ever seen. Duran broke his own rhythm almost as often as he broke theirs. Sometimes he froze mid-momentum and then threw his power shot once the opponent had realigned himself. He almost always nailed his man when he did that. He never got stuck in a simple, jab-jab-jab rhythm. He constantly broke and rebroke his rhythm. He wasn't a fighter who didn't have a discernable rhythm like Jones, he set one, then broke it. Over, and over again. And breaking other fighter's rhythms was second nature. The probing feints before his jab, the shoulder barges, the stutters and sudden changes body language. Even, in one case, a clench of a fist.

Skills and subtleties on this level just aren't seen from any other fighter. Now Benny Leonard was obviously no bum, but the footage of him in absolutely no way shows a fighter superior to Duran. Leonard had a great jab and was an excellent mover, but there wasn't the overwhelming skill we can see from Duran. And I highly doubt more footage would change that; Duran was flat out better, and it's pretty obvious.

Robinson'a freakish offensive arsenal, and brilliant physical attributes that led to what is pretty much the perfect boxer-puncher, makes him second best. He's the most talented fighter ever, but he didn't show this level of skill, nor completeness. What he did show, was an incredible flair and upper-gear. The speed, power and fluidity of every combo, every punch thrown with his entire body weight, rapidly transferred and snapped through his entire kinetic chain, is incredible. I've never seen any fighter throw shots like that, and I've never seen any actually come that close. But he still does show the same level of all-round skill as Duran, and there isn't a huge gap between them in terms of physical attributes either.

Calling Duran 'lead footed', a 'good fighter' and calling his opposition at lightweight 'average', is inexcusable and frankly, embarrassing. You do not beat Sugar Ray Leonard if you're nothing more than a 'good fighter'. Comparing Duran's competition to Benny Leonard does not make it average, fighters like Buchanan, DeJesus and Ishimatsu would be elite in any era. He also beat excellent contenders in Kobayashi, Thompson, Bizzarro, Ortiz and Fernandez. These are by no means average, they're a collection of brilliant fighters and Duran destroyed them.

I severely hope you either reconsider your position or at least give the time of day to watch Duran at work.

 

You're getting boring, facts have higher weight than your opinions. Facts show you that Leonard had far better resume than Floyd. On top of that, in limited footage we have he looks at least as good on the tape.

 

Robinson, with guys like Duran and Armstrong not too far away.

 

Even if we just take Sugar Ray Leonard...who at the time was not only in a heavier weight class but considered the Next Boxing Miracle proceeding from the Father (SRR) and the Son (Muhammad Ali)...you can even regard that even greater than Frazier's performance against Ali at the FOTC. Leonard couldn't have been any more prime, he was literally astonishing at Welter already.

 

Leonard was okay but not astonishing by any stretch of the imagination

 

I think of Ray Leonard as a good quality fighter

well rounded and respectable but not an all time great. wins over prime Donald Curry & Aaron Pryor would have done wonders for a short resume like his.

 

I still have Robinson in front as well as other moderns whose names are not present in this list

he's a hard puncher but his slow feet led to his downfall to Ray Leonard, and Kirkland Laing

 

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lol!

Obviously Sugar Ray Leonard was a great fighter.

 

You're doing it again.

Don't minimalise Leonard. He's every bit as good as Robinson.

Don't take Duran at his worst to judge him, take him at his best. You wouldn't judge Robinson off the archer fight, would you?

 

You put a lot of effort into this post well spoken. But I have to disagree with you on the claim that Duran is our most skilled fighter. One of the best but he has marks against him he shouldn't. I think a fully assembled collection of Ezzards fights would give us clearer winner IMO. I don't think anyone had the amount of education in the ring as Charles.

 

Well, I'm not gonna argue with a fellow Charles fan...

 

I consider Ezzard the P4P GOAT