Greatest Welterweights in History

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mteslamiller, May 12, 2022.

  1. Mteslamiller

    Mteslamiller Member Full Member

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    It’d be a great fight, though.
     
  2. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Barbados Joe Walcott deserves a serious mention.
     
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  3. Mteslamiller

    Mteslamiller Member Full Member

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    I have him at no. 8 on my amended list.
     
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  4. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
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  5. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    They were MW’s, genius.

    You just don’t want to give credit to Leonard.
     
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  6. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Why’s that?

    Otherwise, you’re just debating on stats.

    Nobody would rank Sven Ottke higher than Roy Jones at SMW.
     
  7. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Another joke post from you.

    It’s par for the course with you.

    You make your own criteria up.

    You put Floyd down as an ATG JMW based on just THREE fights.

    Against: A faded Oscar, a faded Cotto and a young Canelo.

    If you rate Floyd so highly at JMW based on his ability, then don’t moan when somebody also rates Hearns highly at WW based on his ability.

    Crawford is a fine fighter who’s looking great. Sure, he hasn’t got stopped like Hearns did. But then he’s never fought a prime ATG like Ray before has he.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
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  8. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Canelo has a poor resume at JMW, and he barely beat 2 non great fighters and got washed by Floyd.

    Yet you have him above more deserving guys.

    Again, Floyd only had 3 fights at JMW.

    You can’t place Floyd as a top 5 guy at JMW based on H2H ability, then whine when someone else does the same thing for Hearns at WW.
     
  9. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Resident Gadfly Full Member

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    Maybe, Floyd also fought inferior guys.
     
  10. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    Ah yes, the honest assessment of Floyd being at an advantage against fighters bigger than him, fighters who were “faded” while he was older than them, and fighters who were “young” despite being being unified, undefeated champions while he was old, in fight years. The advantage is that he was a better fighter than them.

    I wouldn’t rank Mayweather as a top ten welter if he beat Cuevas and a couple B listers before being stopped by Leonard.
     
  11. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    I placed Floyd on resume.
     
  12. Mark Dunham

    Mark Dunham Active Member Full Member

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    This is the REAL list

    Best welterweights in history
    #1 Robinson
    #2 Napoles
    #3 Rodriguez
    #4 Armstrong
    #5 Basilio
    #6 PBF
    #7 Gavilan
    #8 Cuevas
    #9 Leonard
    #10 Zivic
    Hearns didn't make it due to a lack of accomplishments at 147. A more suitable better suggestion would be Simon Brown
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022 at 7:02 AM
  13. Jel

    Jel Reserving the right to be inconsistent Full Member

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    I was being overly emphatic to make a point that I think H2H is a quite an abstract way of rating a fighter if that is someone’s main or only criteria for rating.

    There are more things I take into consideration than just achievement/resumé but H2H (unless actually discussing when two fighters actually did go head to head in history) is based on the notion that if two fighters from different points in history met, one would beat the other - it’s tantamount to guesswork, even if you feel sure you’re right. We all do it to some degree but you have to evaluate what they actually did in the ring and who they fought in their time to make a decent judgement about where you’d place them in a list.

    It’s still a subjective judgement even then but at least it’s more grounded. I don’t assess it from a purely statistical point of view, though, as that can be superficial and misleading too. I still make some level of assessment based on the eye test (where significant film is available) which is arguably an abstract way of evaluating as well, but you’ve also got to trust something beyond what you read on paper and viewing footage is part of that historical record.

    That’s my take on it anyway. It’s a bit like scoring a fight - everyone has slightly different criteria for how they do it even if consensus builds around fighters over time with enough weight of opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
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  14. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Floyd didn’t have the mileage that Oscar and Cotto did.

    Cotto had been bashed up by Marg and Manny

    Cotto and Canelo weren’t bigger than Floyd.

    Canelo was significantly heavier, but it wasn’t an advantage to him, as he didn’t impose it on Floyd.

    Yes, of course I agree that he was better than they were.

    Nobody is saying otherwise.


    You say that you wouldn’t rank Floyd if he’d have had Hearns’ resume, but nobody is going to believe that. Not after what you’ve typed on recent similar threads.

    Hearns is obviously on the list for his resume and his ability.
     
  15. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, you didn’t.

    And if it were true, then what does that say?

    Floyd only had 3 fights at JMW, with one being an enforced C-W


    He struggled with a faded Oscar, he beat a faded Cotto, and he beat a young, naive Canelo.

    Sure, JMW might not have the depth that WW does, but unless you consider Floyd’s great ability, you cannot rank him as a top 5 ATG at JMW, based on just 3 fights.

    You can’t do it.

    So stop lying.

    You have put him there on his resume and his ability.

    All you’re doing here, is trying to get out of the hole that you’ve dug for yourself.


    You’ve been caught out.

    You have accused posters of doing exactly what you do.

    Hearns is rated here based on resume and ability.

    So again, quit whining.

    Quit telling people to omit Hearns from the list due to his resume, when you have Floyd rated as an ATG JMW on just three fights.