Greatest wins of James J Jeffries?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BitPlayerVesti, Feb 2, 2019.



  1. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No, I specified the Child's fight in 02', EVERY fight you mentioned in your initial post was after that fight, and exactly why there was no reason to mention them, yet you did. Losing to Jeannette by DQ isn't really a loss that shows he struggled during his pre-title run. Obrien was AFTER the title, so again, how does that count towards his pre-title run? Are we back to mentioning this exhibition again? Not to mention did we forget when this exhibition took place? The Johnson fight was again, after his pre-title run and he still didn't lose that fight, even with a broken arm. The point is, he cleaned out the division prior to getting the title (pre-title run), and then remained undefeated from Childs to Willard. Some performances might not have been overwhelmingly great, but he still won or didn't lose. That is never easy to do over a span of 15 years.

    I never said he was great, I simply said if Rings had a rating then, he'd certainly have made those ratings for HW. Something you also noted, so I'm not sure why you're arguing with me about it now.
     
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  2. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    Come on man. The horse is dead.
     
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  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yours was a non runner!
     
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  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Look at it this way, he fought a teenaged McVey, an estimated 20-year-old 156 pound Langford, and a novice in Jeanette many times. In all of these matches combines ) too lazy to count but I'll guess 10 in total ), he has but one stoppage, and it was in round 20 vs. an exhausted Sam McVey.

    Nothing Johnson landed bothered or deterred Moran, Hart or Willard. Jeffries is viewed to be more durable than all of them.

    Make sense now? If no, tell me why. Jeffries fought many punchers. Choynski, Fitzsimmons 2x and Sharkey 2x None could floor him. Each hit harder than Johnson.

    The main reasons Johnson stopped Jeffries 6 years of ring rust, losing a lot of weight, age ( 35 ) and the desert heat in July.

    So you agree with my points then regarding his opponents, and the fact that Johnson failed to finish them?

    I think the problem here when discussing classic fights is most have not seen the films. Jeffries was very tired late in the Johnson match. He had not fought in 6 years, came down from a high weight, and was in the desert heat in July. He was also old for the times. If you watch the films, you'll see he could not keep his hands up rounds 14, not from taking punches, but from exhaustion.

    Jeffries had excellent reflexes in his prime and stood up to much better punchers. Johnson was not a puncher. Most of his fans will admit that.

    Johnson himself said Jeffries remains strong until the end. Jeffries said he tired himself out, and clearly stated if he was younger he would have won it, and gave the fight that was left him.

    I'm surprised you can't understand that conditioning plays a role. How many older fighters have you seen try to come back, in a much shorter window than 6 years removed get stopped via TKO/KO.

    Take Suger Ray Leonard for example and the Hector Camacho fight. Ray who had a top chin was stopped in 5 rounds. Camacho was no puncher! Get it? Do you think a prime Leonard would be stopped in 5 to Camacho? Not a chance....same thing here.

    I hope I am making sense.
     
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Take his given birth date and do the math. It's easy. I'm 100% correct unless his birth date is listed incorrectly, which I doubt.
     
  6. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Addict Full Member

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    My point is, is his date of birth confirmed. There's a different one on his passport.
     
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    And it was?

    Sam Mcvea
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    : May 17, 1884,
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    Or use

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    The bottom line is this. He was green and a teenager when he fought Jack Johnson. The results really don't mean much as Sam McVea was 18 and 19 for the three fights.
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Some of the matches I mentioned above are post 1902. I included more pre-title run as I think he fought better good fighters pre 1902 that were close to their prime, where post 1902 some of the best names he fought were very green or small. Wouldn't;t you agree?

    Johnson lost to Jeannette via DQ when he went low, according to some primary sources was outboxed by O'Brien, was knocked silly in a 4 round ex match vs. GB Smith, and I think was lucky to draw vs. Jim Battling Johnson. Is that better? I mentioned none of those names in my initial reply.

    Fireman Flynn? KuRuPt, he was KO'd SEVEN times before meeting Johnson in 1907, and TWENTY SIX times in his career. He was a game journeyman type. The poor man's corpse might still be ringing from all the punishment he took. Do you think such a man was a good win? That would be stretching what good is by modern standards.



    Okay, let' start on Childs. He was a middleweight and 35 years old when he lost to Jack Johnson in 1902. Is that supposed to be an impressive win KuRuPT, you tell me?

    Jeannette was green, so the fact that he was sometimes competitive with Johnson, who had been fighting as a pro for 10 years shows something.

    1909. Johnson's absolute prime! What happened in this year? I'll tell you, many thought he was outboxed by past his best Jack O'Brien. He was floored and by his own admission hurt by Kethel, backed up by those at ringside who said he was buzzed after the ending. Ketchel was a middleweight too. And he was TKO'd by a novice in Gun Boat Smith in a 4 round exhibition match. All of this happened in 1909. None of these guys were heavyweights of 200 pounds or more. Does that really impress you KurPuT?

    As for the broken radius bone in the dubious draw vs battling Jim, there is confusion as to exactly when it happened. Many thought it happened in the last round when the two fell to the floor.

    The unbeaten timeline you refer ( Which is wrong as he lost via DQ to Joe Jeannette, so revise your numbers ) to means he didn't fight the best. If you want to be right, Johnson went just shy of 9 3/4 years without losing, with several draws in-between. He avoided Langford, McVey, and Jeannette, in their primes years, never gave Gunboat a shot, Battling Jim a re-match or meet McCarty. It also seems that Johnson got what could be viewed as a lucky draw or two.

    Have you heard of Brian Nielsen? He won 48 fights in a row without being stopped. Yes, but who did he fight.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So at 35 Childs was a year younger than Fitzsimmons was when Jeffries dethroned him and he had already fought 5 times that year whereas Fitz had been inactive for 2 years when he defended his title against Jeffries?
    Childs was still recognized as the Colored Champion his recent loss to Martin was deemed to have been too short to decide who was the better man. Childs a middleweight? Childs was the 2/1 betting favourite and both men were estimated to weigh around180lbs . Primary sources, The Los Angeles Express,The Los Angeles Times Oct21st1902
    The Los Angeles Herald said this."There will be little disparity in weights.Both will be over 185lbs and under 190lbs" October 21st 1902 .
    We have confirmed offers of title defences against Langford,McVey ,Jeannette, and McCarty which Johnson accepted ,they are all in Pollack's bio of Johnson and I've posted them many ,many times including the purse monies and locations for these prospective defences.
    I have also posted the confirmed reasons these fights did not take place with certified quotes from promoters,[ McIntosh,Burns,McMahon .] and Athletic Commissions,[NYAC ,] explaining why they pulled the plug on these proposed fights
    Your primary sources consist of, "many thought" lol!
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Only you would compare Childs to Fitz! Childs was pretty much done by that time, and if you really think much of him, Jeffries has a recorded Ko over him in the press, but no confirmed fight report has been found.

    Childs was about 5'9" tall and weight 160 for many years. As I stated he was a middle weight!

    Using the LA Herald if Johnson was 185+ in 1902, then what was he in 1901 when Choysnki KO'd him cold? I have see you " attempt " to say Johnson was at a low weight for the Choysnki fight in an effort to mitigate the fact that he was Ko'd so quickly by a lighter man.

    BUSTED. :clapclap: I like this, yes Johnson was over 185 pounds in 1902. That is what I have been saying for a while.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Im not comparing Childs to Fitz, I'm highlighting your double standard in mentioning Childs was 35, something you never do when talking about Jeffries opponents! Four papers say Childs was between 180 and 185lbs and he was 5'9.5 " tall ,an inch and a half taller than Sharkey who was also around the same weight as Childs.I havent attempted anything I've only taken Pollack's quotes for my source, if you dispute them take it up with him!
    Jeffries never fought Childs and he never claimed to have done so.
    The only thing busted here is your ridiculous toxic hate for Johnson which really has no place on a thread about Jeffries greatest wins ,but of course you couldn't restrain yourself from boring us with your daily dose of vitriol.
    You've been pulled up, exposed and corrected on this thread by both Kurupt and myself.
    It's about time you showed some manners and stopped contaminating everybody's threads with your irrational obsession with Johnson!
     
  12. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well, I'm questioning your view on events and that Jeffries was simply exhausted, because this wasn't an action packed fight. It's not like Johnson was putting relentless pressure on Jeffries tiring him out. He was doing nothing of the sort. Jeffries was doing his usually plodding slowly forward with his head to the side, mixed with some wrestling and exchanges. Nothing overtly tiring or strenuous. Therefore, we can reasonably assume that Johnson punch had a fair deal to do with Jeffries going down as his stamina.
     
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  13. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mendoza would have us believe the fight was level after 10 rounds and then Johnson took over as Jeff tired.
    Jeffries own brother Jack and Jim Corbett were discussing how to pull Jeffries out.as early as the 6th rd," Jack your brother's licked ,what are we going to do?" Corbett. Here is the truth from the next days paper!

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    Here is some good info on McVey's early fights researched by Boilermaker on here.

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    Historian Charley Rose regarded McVey as an all time heavyweight hitter, just as many do Tyson today, ranking Sam # 7 on his all time heavyweight list in 1968. McVey was a short, stocky built puncher like Iron Mike and with similar type punching ability. McVey, like Tyson, also had a lot of success at a young age; he was only 18 when he went 20 rounds with Jack Johnson in their first fight. McVey made his reputation as a fierce puncher knocking out former “colored heavyweight champion” Denver Ed Martin, a slick boxer known to have a good chin and fast footwork in one round. Sam lost a rematch to Martin on a ten round decision, and in a third fight with Martin, Sam knocked him stiff with a right hand in the 4th round. It was considered one of the fastest and fiercest fights seen in a San Diego ring to that time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  14. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You're the fool that said McVey couldn't jab! FYI He closed Langford's right eye with his jab in their third fight.Source Clay Moyle the Langford biographer and expert on him.
     
  15. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    Let's stop trying to excuse Johnson ducking his top contenders. If race was such a huge issue a Johnson-Burns fight would have been impossible to make as well as a defense against battling jim johnson.
     

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