Greatness of Joe Frazier

Box-puncher? Pressure-boxer? I’m not sure really but he’s not a torpedo, not a Rocky.

 

You think Marciano was tougher than Frazier? I don’t think Marciano came close to proving that - I mean I don’t think it’s close in terms of what can be observed in reality, on film.

 

Frazier was faster, bigger, better balanced and had a better jab. I don't know what fundamental aspects of Marciano's game you think made him better than Joe Frazier but I'm here to tell you: faster and bigger alone is a massive gap to close.

Frazier was clearly better than Marciano by my eye, would absolutely kick his ass and brought a kind of fire-pressure to Muhammad Ali that Maricano wouldn't be able to match in a literal dream.

He was just flat-out not as good.

Do you believe Marciano getting hit less to be self-evident or have you done some work in this area?

 

"Better at doing boxing" absolutely includes speed.

I also think you are wrong to dismiss Frazier's size advantage even in this context. Comparing Hagler to Ali is silly; if you compare Hagler to Hopkins, say, and want to argue that Hopkins being bigger at MW isn't a meaningful advantage of him in executing his style, then you'd be showing the required consistency (but also be very silly).

Do you believe Marciano getting hit less to be self-evident or have you done some work in this area?

Why would Marciano do that? Frazier did it specifically to bring himself counter-punching opportunities, betting on his left hand to out-gun his opponent's right hand. It took George Foreman to prove his strategy wrong. Marciano didn't actively try to trigger the opponent's right but that would have been a monumentally stupid thing for him to do, it would have placed him literallly at the level of a street-fighter. Surely you understand that for Frazier, it made sense to trigger the opponent's right hand? Surely you understand that Marciano would be an idiot to do the same?

Why would Marciano look to load his lead foot? Are you sure you're doing this right? Frazier was a momentum pressure-fighter, he was a pressure-fighter that was capable of keeping 15 rounds of pressure equalling foot-speed with Muhammad Ali. Marcaino was a stalker pressure-fighter who knew he couldn't keep up with a past-prime Ezzard Charles. Their styles have a fundamental difference that lead to differences in approach but the differences all grow up around Frazier's fundamental advantages in size and speed.

As a come-to-Jesus summary: when Marciano put his his weight through his front foot, he crowded himself and lost balance, pretty consistently and up until the end of his career. He looped his punches and sold the counter as a consequence. He had to box more within himself due to these technical limitations, he was the more technically limited fighter because of his physical disadvantages, and it is not close, at all. He parcelled himself in every bit as much as Frazier led off. If Frazier wanted to keep the pressure on the type of fighters that Rocky would just have to wait for, he had to lead through his front foot, he was chasing. He also favoured the left. Technically it makes perfect sense for him, it's the type of sacrifice true pressure-fighters everywhere make. I've always admired Goldman for his recognition of Marciano's limitations and his styling of the man in response. It was a job of work not equalled until Steward got ahold of Wlad.

Anyway - Marciano would have to be drunk to load up his lead foot, and Frazier did it as a natural consequence of a fundamental style Marciano couldn't have attempted if he'd trained to be 100.

So did Frazier.

This is untrue, it is impossible to apply "pressure just as much" if you're slower, and deliberately slower at that. Frazier's pressure was irrefutably faster, and therefore irrefutably there was "more of it".

You cannot be serious. At least Frazier offered himself square. Archie Moore turned Rocky Marciano into a punching bag. Not in the sense that he beat the crap out of him, in the sense that he mad him square and static. He must have fallen over his right 100 times in the first three rounds against Moore, and I mean 100. You know that bump Marciano offered with his left shoulder to know where a guy was? Little push to keep him off balance and know where he was for the right hand? Moore actually had him doing this with his right shoulder That is how square Maricano got against Moore.

What you have to remember among all this is: Frazier fought a much higher level of competition. You've no clue what someone like Ali might have done to someone like Marciano. It's true that Frazier volunteered himself square and that this is a defensive shortfall, but it should always be remembered that is an offensive surplus and if it is a choice it is controlled. I don't know of the top of my head if Frazier was ever forced to be square when he didn't want to be, but I know absolutely that Marciano was, often.

I reject that, although I might pick Rocky on the inside "a lot better" is in excess, and that's pretty clear. Frazier was a hellish infighter and his superior size gave him further fundamental advantages over Rocky. To whit: I think Frazier would outfight Marciano inside. I think he's equal in volume, but he is quicker and he's much quicker by my eye in combination punching. In combination with increased size, this is an enormous advantage to be overcome and furthermore it makes him much more difficult to fight on the inside for the wider field. In fact, I've out-thought myself. I think Frazier was a better heavyweight infighter than Marciano.

Honestly, I'm not sure you've seen Marciano-Moore based upon this post here. Marciano has his head low over his lead foot and gets hit with twin uppercuts repeatedly against Moore. He does exactly what you say Frazier does repeatedly.

Overall you seem keen to make claims on Maricano's behalf which film does not support, and confused about Frazier style.

 

Well you can respond to my posts or not, that's totally up to you; but if you mean will I change the way I post to accommodate you, no.

I mean have you done any work? Have you counted punches, seen someone else's punchstats analysis, done a comparison of the amount they got hit versus the overall accuracy of their opposition? Or have you watched the fights and just developed this feeling that Frazier go hit more.

I know now that it's the second of these.

This is a list of glimpses of fights where you list things about Frazier that lead you to believe he got "hit too much." But it doesn't mean anything in this context. It says nothing about the kicking Walcott gave Marciano in their first fight - you fixate on what Quarry did to Frazier but you say nothing about the amount of leather that Walcott laid on Maricano through two, and the misery he inflicted upon him from seven through twelve - how does this compare to the Quarry fight? How many puncehs was Walcott landing on Maricano per-round? How many was Quarry landing on Frazier per round? How many times did Maricano "back out of exchanges" in this fight? Marciano was decked, Frazier was not, do you care? If not why not?

Do you see what I mean? You've just kind of made a list of things you don't like about Frazier, sans comparison, sans having established the context in that fight. It doesn't mean anything. Past-prime Charles landed hundreds of punches on Rocky, is that better or worse than past-prime Ali landing hundreds on Joe? That's the kind of question you should be trying to answer. Anyone can list a series of bad moments for any heavyweight and lay claim to it.

At what stage of training was Joe when this happened? At what stage of training was Qawi? What was Joe working on that day? What was Qawi working on that day? What had Futch asked of each of them? Is there another explanation for what occurred? Approach to sparring stories should be cautious, cautious, cautious, they mean almost nothing to me personally unless I have some information on these aspects. Fighters don't spar to win rounds much of the time. Jesus, some of them almost never spar to win rounds. If Frazier was coming out of the garage and working on defence and a counter-jab, this means 0. If he was three days from a fight, this means 0. If he had thrashed Qawi badly the day before, this means 0. Or it could be very important. But 99.9% of the work to determine this is undone here.