Greatness

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by the cobra, Oct 30, 2008.


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  1. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Which of these fighters do you classify as Great?

    Whatever you consider Great to be, whether it means a fighter who would make it inside your top 100 all time, top 50, top 25, top 120, whatever, which of these fighters do you see as Great fighters?

    Cocoa Kid

    Ken Buchanan

    Esteban DeJesus

    Ismael Laguna

    Hector Camacho

    Jimmy Bivins

    Eddie Booker

    Duilio Loi

    Nino Benvenuti

    Lupe Pintor

    Ernesto Marcel

    Johnny Famechon

    Tony Zale

    Kostya Tszyu

    Jeff Fenech


    Which of these fighters, if any, do you personally classify as GREAT fighters?
     
    the cobra, Oct 30, 2008
    the cobra, Oct 30, 2008
    #1
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Ken Buchanan

    Esteban DeJesus

    Ismael Laguna

    Jimmy Bivins

    Duilio Loi

    Lupe Pintor



    My picks. I've been a bit strict, and i'd suggest leving out either Buchanan or Laguna means the other has to go. Some of the guys I've left out have a borderline case.

    You?
     
    McGrain, Oct 30, 2008
    McGrain, Oct 30, 2008
    #2
  3. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Bivins is really the only one I feel sure about as of the moment.

    I think I could see DeJesus, Buchanan, Laguna, and Loi as Greats.

    Pintor, Camacho, Benvenuti, Tszyu, Cocoa Kid, Booker, and Zale come in next, all just short of greatness as I see it.

    Then finish off with a level of Famechon, Marcel, and Fenech.

    Or something like that.

    What makes you chose those fighters McGrain?
     
    the cobra, Oct 30, 2008
    the cobra, Oct 30, 2008
    #3
  4. Mantequilla

    Mantequilla Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Depending on how strict your criteria is i don't thnk it would be ridiculous to argue for all of them.

    I wouldn't put Marcel or Famechon on a lower level than Buch, Dejesus etc.
     
    Mantequilla, Oct 30, 2008
    Mantequilla, Oct 30, 2008
    #4
  5. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Any that stick out as clear greats to you?
     
    the cobra, Oct 30, 2008
    the cobra, Oct 30, 2008
    #5
  6. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    All are in my top 200, but only Loi gets a spot in my top 100. Like Mantequilla says, it depends on your criteria, but nothing is patently absurd in regarding them all as great. Personally, I think Camacho is the one least likely in that list to be regarded as great, even though he might well be the most talented.
     
    sweet_scientist, Oct 30, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Oct 30, 2008
    #6
  7. Mantequilla

    Mantequilla Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yeah, Camacho for me is the one that sticks out as least accomplished despite his talent.

    Most of the others are on a similar level though most likely Loi would go up in my estimation if i had watched his fights with Ortiz
     
    Mantequilla, Oct 30, 2008
    Mantequilla, Oct 30, 2008
    #7
  8. bladerunner

    bladerunner El Intocable Full Member

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    why do you have Loi ahead of Bivins who beat better competition?
     
    bladerunner, Oct 30, 2008
    bladerunner, Oct 30, 2008
    #8
  9. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Loi was simply more consistent than Bivins. He arguably didn't lose a fight until he lost to Perkins, and he reversed it, as he did every loss in his career.

    Bivins has a great looking resume, but we should not forget that his best wins came against smaller guys, who when they fully matured, got the better of him.
     
    sweet_scientist, Oct 30, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Oct 30, 2008
    #9
  10. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Bivins sticks out for me at at the other end Fenech and Camacho.
     
    mattdonnellon, Oct 30, 2008
    mattdonnellon, Oct 30, 2008
    #10
  11. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Even so, given the circumstances of each win, don't you think Bivins' knockout of Moore (who was 10 years into his career), as well as the one-sided win over a pre-prime and naturally smaller but still excellent Ezzard Charles, along with wins over Marshall, Burley, Maxim, Curtis Sheppard (4 times), Lesnevich, Clarence Henry, Yarosz, Soose, Bettina, Lee Q. Murray, Pastor, Christoforidis, etc. Is enough to place Bivins higher all-time than Loi, who, outside of Ortiz and Perkins and a few more decent wins, simply doesn't have an impressive resume?
     
    the cobra, Oct 30, 2008
    the cobra, Oct 30, 2008
    #11
  12. albinored

    albinored Active Member Full Member

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    ...some very good fighters, bivins is the only one i'd call great.
     
    albinored, Oct 30, 2008
    albinored, Oct 30, 2008
    #12
  13. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That's a lot of talent there, I can't deny it. That resume far outstrips Loi's.

    Though, he was 17 or 18 pounds heavier than Moore when he worked the trick, about 10 pounds heavier than Marshall when he did him, 11 or so pounds above Smith, 10 above a greenish Charles etc. The wins still count, but I don't think Duilio would lose to many 130 pounders either, ya know?
     
    sweet_scientist, Oct 30, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Oct 30, 2008
    #13
  14. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Bivins, Zale, and Fenech for sure IMO.

    Probably Benvenuti, Booker (though I've never seen him), and maybe Pintor as well.

    Hard to say with Loi, I've never seen him and although he had great numbers, he's mainly remembered for his series of fights against one fighter.

    The others all fall short IMO, although Camacho had the talent of a great fighter, and could possibly beat one if he put his mind to it.
     
    My2Sense, Oct 31, 2008
    My2Sense, Oct 31, 2008
    #14
  15. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    All excellent fighters, but for greatness to mean anything special you have to conclude none of the fighters listed were great.
     
    TBooze, Oct 31, 2008
    TBooze, Oct 31, 2008
    #15
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