Greb and the Heavyweights- Tommy Gibbons

But you've claimed that Dempsey failing to meet, arguably, his top two contenders and definitively the #1 contender during his title reign doesn't matter (or something like it). And I don't see how that can be true; at all.

No, maybe I wasn't clear, technically you are right no argument my point is that it doesnt taint Dempsey's "sports" legacy, the vast majority see's him as a SPORTS icon. I thought that was the argument, his sports legacy.

I completely disagree. Wills carved out a place for himself in boxing history by beating fighters like Sam Langford, Sam McVey, Jeff Clark, Joe Jeanette and a whole swathe of others.

Here is something that I haven't seen mentioned by anybody, Wills was considered a dirty fighter, Robert Edgren said as much, and pointed out, if Dempsey and Wills fought what would happen if Wills fouled Dempsey, what kind of murder mayhem do you think will come of it. Again all these years later and nobody but hard core fan's even know he existed or cared.
Sorry to say but who, after all these years, cares?

Had Dempsey never lived and nothing else had changed, he would still be remembered by boxing history fans as one of the most denied contenders in boxing. Because that's what he was.

The few, the majority remembers Dempsey


I completely disagree with this too. Greb is widely discussed by boxing people for the phenom he was, not because Dempsey ducked him.

IDK why you are doing this, sure Greb was a great fighter but who do fan's remember in far greater numbers, be honest now? We were talking about sports legacy, Dempsey is the man, very few would even know who Greb and Wills is. I am not talking about the guys posting here, but fan's in general


I wouldn't like to say; i know that more has been written in books about Greb rather than Greb/Dempsey and I know that there are are more articles about Greb than there are about Greb ducking Dempsey. It's true that this duck/failure to fight has engendered a lot of threads though - why wouldn't it?

Cos us boxing fanatics love to argue,

Dempsey has a greater legacy than Wills or Greb; he was heavyweight champion.

Let's be clear, you are saying that Dempsey is an icon only cos he was HW champ? There have been many world HW champs since then. Are all remembered or talked about cos they were champs?

In the end, Dempsey missed out on the other great HW of his era, and on a white challenger that beat ALL of his other white challengers - all of them (unless you want to count Firpo as white, and excluding Carpantier who refused to fight Greb. I think that matters.
He made more money fighting Carpentier, Firpo and Tunney.

Only to the few, the majority loved the guy. It's not like I am looking to argue.
It's a fact that cant be disputed Dempsey was a sports icon and his sports legacy has not been hurt only the few, argue this, the majority doesnt care.

“When you’re fighting, you’re fighting for one thing,” Dempsey once said. “Money.”

The live gate for Dempsey-Carpentier was $1,789,238 (more than twice the previous record for a fight and equivalent to more than $20,000,000 today). Dempsey was guaranteed $300,000 plus 25% of the motion picture rights. Carpentier was guaranteed $200,000 plus the same 25%. Those numbers were far above anything that fighters had been paid before.
That's why the white boy fought for MONEY. Neither Greb or Wills guaranteed that kind of money. That's it - that's all.[/quote]

 

Interesting, let me ask you a question did this legal case prevent Dempsey and Tunney from fighting? The numbers are totally ridiculous, lawyer mumbo jumbo. If the case was so strong they could have filed an injunction to halt the fight, that the fight went on says a lot. What would make it more interesting would be what became of this case.
Also this as I have said over and over, business/money dictates. “When you’re fighting, you’re fighting for one thing,” Dempsey once said. “Money.”
Dempsey’s purse for the first Tunney fight had been $717,000. For the rematch, he was guaranteed $450,000. Interest in the bout ran high, with the challenger given a good chance to win. After all; he was Jack Dempsey. And Tunney was the first heavyweight champion who had won the title by decision rather than knockout.

Tunney-Dempsey II rewrote boxing’s financial record-book. On September 22, 1927, 104,943 fans crammed into Soldiers’ Field in Chicago. The live gate of $2,658,660 (the equivalent of more than $30,000,000 today) would stand as a record for more than fifty years. It wasn’t surpassed until Muhammad Ali and Leon Spinks fought in the New Orleans Superdome in 1978. Tunney’s purse was precisely $990,445.54. After the fight, he gave Tex Rickard a check for $9,554.46 in order to receive a check for $1,000,000.

 

I am sorry but when you make a statement, I believe you should factor everything and be prepared for someone to have an opposing view. If loads and loads of fighters done this name a few at least give some examples. Let us judge for ourselves.
Both Kearns and Rickard were in total control of Dempsey, Dempsey finally broke free of Kearns but not Rickard. Rickard was the Bob Arum of the day he paid very well, so Dempsey continued to fight for him. You all seem to ignore everything that doesnt fit, race and size was at the time something to consider and it was. There are more then one or two articles that had the same conclusion, race and size, by the best sportswriters of the day, and still you push that aside cos it doesnt fit your POV. What is so hard to understand they didn't fight, that is a fact. That Wills or Greb deserved a shot can be argued but to what end, what??? It doesnt change a thing, Dempsey's sports legacy continues to grow.

 

Here is a well researched article on Dempsey by an excellent writer Tom Hauser, entitled Dempsey revisited: http://www.secondsout.com/usa-boxing-news/usa-boxing-news/jack-dempsey-revisited