Greb and the Heavyweights- Tommy Gibbons

If true, that has to be two punch stat records right there. :good
And I doubt we'll ever see those records equalled.

 

Dempsey, let me help you out a bit here since you are short on facts:

In none of these contests did either contestant weigh as a HW.

The first Greb-Gibbons fight was held in Tommy's home town and was the first fight Greb ever had outside of the Penn/Ohio area and he was fighting the student and chief sparring partner of the best P4P fighter in the world. Gibbons was undefeated despite having already faced several contenders and in fact would continue undefeated for another 5 years suffering his first defeat at Greb's hands. They had two common opponents to that point: Joe Borrell who Greb had lost and drawn with but who Gibbons had defeated and Billy Miske who Greb had drawn with but Gibbons had defeated twice. Greb went into that fight as the underdog and despite this the Twin Cities press lauded his performance and wrote letters back to Pittsburgh telling the press there that he had made a hit and was welcome back any time and not to hold the loss against him. In fact based on that performance he was signed to fight Mike O'Dowd the following month in St. Paul but had to cancel after he broke his arm against Kid Graves. Kid Graves subbed for Greb and defeated O'Dowd as well. I doubt it helped Greb's performance that hanging over his head was the fact that less than a week after his bout with Gibbons he was expected to testify in court against a man who shot one of Greb's friends in the face and who blamed Greb for the altercation. The weights were 158 pounds at 3pm on the afternoon of the fight.

For their second fight in Pittsburgh Greb had suffered a broken hand against Bob Roper in Denver that had curtailed his planned western tour. The hand had not healed 100% by the time he was signed to fight Gibbons and it prevented him from training much more than roadwork. Yet, despite his previous loss to Gibbons Greb was confident of winning and by this point in his career was good enough that he had beaten several fighters while he suffered one or both hands broken. He dearly wanted revenge against Gibbons for the previous loss which he considered one of only five legitimate losses on his record at that point (he had avenged all of the others). Now here is the interesting thing: The contract for this fight called for the weigh in to be at 3pm on the day of the fight with both fighters to weigh 165 pounds. If you look at Greb's record this fight was held on May 15 but it was originally scheduled for May 12. On may 12 at 3pm both fighters weighed in at 165 but later that day, before the fight, rain moved in forcing a postponement of three days. Greb could make 165 easily but Gibbons couldnt. He was already growing into a full fledged LHW. Red Mason argued that Gibbons must weigh again because the contract demanded that the weights be held to the day of the fight. Gibbons refused and Mason demanded Gibbons' weight forfeit. Again Gibbons refused and threatened to walk away from the fight if he had to weigh in or pay. Finally Gibbons was allowed to not weigh. Ringside the weights were announced as Greb weighing 165 and Gibbons weighing 166 but there was no official weigh in so this was merely Gibbons' word. For all anyone knows he weighed 175 pounds. Now, Greb got a beating and a good one. But the next day he was out begging for an immediate rematch. This wasnt lip service either because the first opportunity Gibbons gave him he jumped at it. Now thats the mark of a guy who knows he can improve upon his performance and he did.

When the fighters agreed to face each other in the rematch Gibbons' handling of the weight in the previous fight was a major sticking point. As such he had to agree to make 163 at 10am on the morning for this fight. The problem was that there was no formal contract for this fight, just a verbal agreement. As such when fight time came around Greb weighed 160.5 pounds and once again Gibbons refused to weigh in. Red Mason almost pulled Greb out of the fight but this would have left the promoters holding a heavy loss so the sheriff stepped in and helped to negotiate a compromise. Gibbons would be allowed to fight without weighing in and Greb would be given half of his weight forfeit, which amounted to $250. For this fight Greb had left no stone underturned in training and even traveled to New York to train with Jack Dempsey, giving the champion all he wanted. Greb went in and beat Gibbons fair and square rain or no rain. Before the rain had even started Greb had drawn first blood and hurt Gibbons several times. Every single round Greb picked up the pace and by the 10th Greb was fighting faster than he had in the first round and Gibbons looked confused and utterly bewildered as Greb blasted him around the ring to the crowds amazement. Fluke my ass. Rain my ass.

The fourth fight is interesting because Gibbons always swore up and down that he would knock Greb out in a long fight and this bout was scheduled for 15 rounds. He was now on a 26 fight win streak (his last loss being to Greb). 21 of those wins were by knockout. He was considered the front runner for a shot at Dempsey and the bout was billed by Tex Rickard as an eliminator to decide Dempsey's logical opponent. Gibbons opened an 8 to 5 favorite in the bout and the odds grew in his favor to 2 to 1 as the fight drew near (some reports had him a 3-1 favorite). He was expected to knock Greb out. To date it was the most important fight either fighter had ever been involved in. It was a cross promotion held in conjunction with the Milk Fund (Milk Fund bouts were enormous for a decade to come). Its gate receipts were in the top ten of all time to that point and in the top five (if I recall correctly) for indoor boxing events. The crowd was populated with society from the Roosevelts, to the Astors, to the Vanderbilts. The bout was filmed (now lost) and based on the victory Greb was thrown a massive parade on his return to Pittsburgh, got a vaudville lucrative contract, was asked to write a series of articles to be syndicated for newspapers nationwide, and won the right to challenge for the HW championship by Dempsey's (who called it the best fight he ever saw) own admission. The fight itself was a masterful performance with Greb alternately boxing rings around Gibbons and outslugging him when Gibbons was able to corner him despite Gibbons having every physical advantage. So with everything on the line, with all of the chips down, and with every advantage Gibbons lost. The weights for this bout were 171 for Gibbons and 163.5 for Greb.

If we are going to have a post titled Greb and the HWs lets have actual HWs (and use real reports, not boxrec blurbs) because the fact is that while Gibbons was an opponent for HW champion Jack Dempsey that fact is a damn shame for three reasons: 1. He didnt deserve it having lost a title eliminator to a MW, 2. He wasnt a HW, weighing only half a pound over the LHW limit when he fought Dempsey, and 3. Harry Wills deserved the shot over Gibbons by a country mile. The ONLY reason myself or most other people say that Greb deserved a shot at Dempsey is because if Dempsey was going to refuse to fight his #1 for the better part of a decade in favor of white guys then he might as well fight the white guy that was either kicking their ass or making them run for the hills. The idea that Dempsey gets a pass for fighting Greb's sloppy seconds simply because they were bigger than Greb (but nowhere near as threatening) is ludicrous. Its a sport. Results are what should matter, not the shiny veneer of a big guy fighting what LOOKS like an evenly matched guy based solely on measurements and weights. Only one guy really has a claim to say he deserved a shot at Dempsey. Thats Wills. BUT if you all the Dempsey nuthuggers are going to give their hero a pass for fighting all the no-hopers he did then certainly Greb deserved a shot more than the likes of Miske, Carpentier, Brennan, Gibbons, and Firpo.

 

Klompton, that was a Class - A kickass post. Thank you for taking the time.

 

If we really want to discuss Greb and the heavyweights we can discuss his fights with:

John Honey Foley in 1914. Foley was the Amateur HW champion in both boxing and wrestling for Pennsylvania, Ohio, and New York for several years. He didn't develop much as a pro but at that stage of development for Greb it was a dangerous fight and Greb beat the holy hell out of Foley.

Jack Lavin in 1915, again, Lavin never developed much as a pro but he had been the amateur HW champion of Ohio and a still developing Greb dominated him.

George Hauser, another developmental stage fight for Greb in 1915. Hauser was a protégé of Joe Choynski who swore up and down he would be a champion. He never developed but Greb whipped him so bad Hauser cried that the much smaller Greb should have gone easy on him.

Battling Levinsky weighed 177 pounds when Greb fought him the first time in 1917. He had defeated a ton of HW contenders. Greb knocked him down in the 10th round and had him out on his feet only for the bell to save Levinsky from the first KO loss of his career.

Willie Meehan in 1917, at 187 pounds outweighed Greb by 26 pounds and boasted recent wins over Jack Dillon, Tom Cowler, and Jack Dempsey. Greb dominated him and did so again in a year and a half later despite Meehan outweighing him 32 pounds and fresh off wins over Jeff Clarke and Sam Langford.

Terry Kellar in 1918, Dempsey's friend, sparring partner, and former opponent. Just a year and a half earlier Keller had lost a very close decision to Dempsey. Greb dominated Keller.

Jack Hubbard in 1918 was a big muscular muscular HW fighting out of the Navy. He had been knocked out by everyone good he fought but only Bill Brennan stopped him faster than Greb despite having fought Miske, Joe Jeanette, and others. Whatever you may say about Hubbard Greb's performance was on par with the HWs who fought him.

Bill Brennan, when Greb first fought Brennan in 1919 in Syracuse Brennan was considered one of the top contenders for the title. Surpassed only by Dempsey, Fulton (possibly), Wills (possibly). He had fought on even terms with every one he had faced barring Tom Cowler (who seems to have been Brennans bugaboo) and Dempsey and we would see the following year that he could fight on even terms with Dempsey as well. His record is incomplete, particularly up to this point in his caree, but at the time he was reputed to have over 60 knockouts to his ledger (which isn't impossible because he already had an impressive KO record). After Greb got done with Brennan the Syracuse Journal said that Greb had decisively defeated Brennan from start to finish. The Syracuse Post Standard gave Greb every round but the sixth which they had even. The Syracuse Herald gave Greb every round and said that he was the aggressor all the way. It added that Brennan had to hang on in the fourth and seventh rounds to avoid punishment.

Despite the Heralds account above a report went over the wires from the "Syracuse Herald News Service" saying that Brennan had won easily. The report originated with Leo P Flynn, Brennan's manager. Greb was so incensed at the idea that someone was claiming Brennan had beaten him that he lobbied Pittsburgh promoters to sign Greb and Brennan for a rematch immediately so he could prove to local fans that he had beaten Brennan easily. Five weeks later Greb was in the ring against Brennan. He had fought an average of once a week over the past five weeks facing in that time Houck, Levinsky, and Wiggins 2x, 2 HOFers and one of the roughest fighters of that era. Jack Dempsey was in town and warned Greb before hand of taking Brennan lightly, saying he gave Dempsey one of his hardest fights. After their fight in Pittsburgh the Chronicle Telegraph said Brennan never had a chance and that he LANDED only 10 punches in the entire fight. The Pittsburgh Gazette Times said Brennan was holding on at the finish of the fight to save himself. Harry Keck of the Pittsburgh Post said Greb decisively beat Brennan in every round and that Brennan was "all in" at the finish. Bill Peet of the Pittsburgh Dispatch gave Brennan one round and said Greb beat him with ease. The Sun said Brennan was on the verge of a knockout in the end and was forced on the defensive the entire time. Every other paper in Pittsburgh agreed that Greb had defeated Brennan.

Miske weighed around 185 pounds when he fought Greb in March 1919, he was much heavier than any of their previous contests. He entered the ring as a favorite in the betting. Daily Dispatch, Leader, and Chronicle-Telegraph draw, Gazette-Times gave Miske only one round, The Post and the Sun both gave Greb 8 of 10 rounds, with one even. The Press voted for Greb as well. The fight was marred by the fact that Miske fouled Greb in round three. He was called for it and walked over and apologized to Greb but the referee, rather than award the fight to Greb, or stop the round and allow Greb time to recover, simply let the clock tick down and let Greb rest it off. When the referee was criticized for this the following day he defended deflected criticism by saying that Miske's performance was to blame for the poor officiating and that in his opinion Miske was pulling his punches. Since the referee was a sheriffs deputy and respected Miske was made the scapegoat and temporarily banned from boxing in Pittsburgh.

8 days later Greb was Buffalo to fight heavyweight George One Round Davis (and I **** you not, between fighting Miske on the 31st and Davis on the 8th he had two other fights...). Davis weighed 183 pounds, boxrec lists Greb's weight as 164 but whoever entered that weight made it up because Greb so no need to weigh in since it was a catch weights fight. One Round was so dubbed because he was a hard hitting, all action fighter who usually either won by an early KO or lost by one. Davis was a tremendous athlete and decent, journeyman level fighter with some good wins but he was at the beginning of a comeback after being out of the ring for three years with Canadian Mounted Police and Greb was just too much for him. He dominated Davis with all newspapers agreeing he won and most giving him 9 of the 10 rounds.

On the same day Jack Dempsey fought Jess Willard for the title Greb fought Bill Brennan in Tulsa for a third time. This was the only official decision of their four fights. The Tulsa Democrat gave Brennan only four of the 15 rounds. The Daily World said that from the 9th round on there was no doubt as to who the winner was and that Greb hit Brennan increasingly at will as Brennan tired. They gave Greb five of these six rounds and said in the 14th Greb tore into Brennan with a two fisted attack that left his face badly battered and added that in addition to outboxing Brennan Greb hit almost as hard.

Just over a month later Greb again beat the hell out of Terry Keller and two weeks after that beat Bill Brennan again in Pittsburgh. Harry Keck of the Pittsburgh Gazette-Times gave Greb 9 of the 10 rounds and one even. In the 8th Greb back Brennan into a corner and had his head rocking like a speed bag to the point that Brennan was a badly dazed HW when the round ended. Brennan weighed 194 pounds to Grebs 168. Both the Press and the Leader stated that Greb was so much faster than Brennan that it made the bout uninteresting. The Post gave Greb 6 rounds, 2 to Brennan, and 2 even. The Dispatch said Greb chased Brennan all around the ring hitting him at will and outclassed him. Greb called out Dempsey after the bout. Brennan said that if they kept matching him with Greb he would someday land a haymaker but then questioned how you would ever land on someone who kept moving all the time and leaping at you. The newspapers agreed that Greb made Brennan look painfully slow, the same Brennan who repeatedly outjabbed and timed the supposedly fast Dempsey a year later.

Greb next dominated Larry Williams who stood over 6 feet tall and weighed around 181 lbs to Greb's 166. The Pittsburgh Gazette Times gave Greb 9 of the 10 rounds. The Press said Greb won easily and that each round was a repetition of the last. The post gave Greb 6 rounds to Williams 3. This was the start of a four bout series that Greb won every time out finally stopping Williams. Williams looks good on film BTW.

Greb then fought Bob Roper in early 1920 to start what would be a six fight series with Jack Johnson's former protégé. Greb dominated Roper every single time they fought. Roper was so frustrated with his inability to beat Greb that he became increasingly dirty and vicious throughout their series.

Greb fought the doomed Mickey Shannon in 1920. Shannon outweighed Greb by almost 30 pounds at 191. He was a terrific athlete having been a star football player for the military academy and was now making a name for himself as a boxer. He had defeated Clay Turner and Bob Roper in recent months and was being hailed as a coming contender. The weight meant nothing to Greb. He stood toe to toe with Shannon and won the exchanges, dropping the big man in the 9th and battering his face.

 

Bartley Madden was the next HW Greb faced. Greb had already defeated the iron chinned Madden in Buffalo when Madden was still a LHW, dropping him in the process. This time they fought in Kalamazoo. The Kalamazoo Gazette didn't give Madden a round. Six months later he would duplicate the result in Pittsburgh.

Jack Renault was another. He outweighed Greb by 22 pounds at 187 and didn't win a round against him. They fought again a month later and Greb knocked Renault down in route to winning a one sided decision.

In August 1921 Greb fought Kid Norfolk. Norfolk weighed 178 pounds, outweighed Greb by 17. The newspapers split down the middle who they thought won. Every newspaper agreed on every single round except the fifth and sixth. Depending on which paper thought which fighter won those rounds determined their decision. The referee said if he had been allowed to render a decision he thought Greb won. Greb was dropped for a short count early but came back to batter Norfolk in the final round. When the bell ended the fight Norfolk was exhausted, bleeding, and being battered in a corner. He cleared all of his scheduled fights and spent the next several days in a Pittsburgh hospital.

One month later Greb fought former white hope Joe Cox who outweighed him by 35 pounds and stood 6' 1.5". Cox boasted a win over Jess Willard but was dominated by Greb. Cox was considered so big for the era that during WW1 he was actually rejected by several branches of the armed forced before he was finally accepted by the US Coast Guard. I have a photo of him being given his physical and the doctor comes up to his shoulder.

Two months later Greb fought 186 pound Charlie Weinert. Weinert was considered one of the classiest HW boxers of the 10s and 20s. Weinert stood 6 foot 2.5 inches tall and weighed 186 pounds. Greb dropped him hard in the first round and gave him a brutal beating to take the decision.

Homer Smith was another. He stood about 6' 3" (towering over his friend Jack Dempsey) and weighed around 200 pounds. Greb beat the hell out of him and stopped him with a broken rib. Smith had been fighting since 1911 and had only been stopped three times. Only two people had stopped Smith as fast, Jack Dempsey and Frank Moran, two of the biggest punchers of the era. The other guy to stop Smith was 6' 3" Tom Cowler. Two years later Smith went the distance with Luis Firpo.

Hughey Walker was a 5' 11" 180 pound HW who had been in with a lot of good fighters. Nothing special but tough. Greb dominated him.

Al Benedict was a big Italian white hope who became famous for winning a white hope competition in New York in the early 10s. He stood 6'1" and at 210 pounds he outweighed Greb by 37 pounds. He was nothing special either. He lost most of his fights but he was big for the era. Greb stopped him in 2 rounds.

Of Course there was Tunney in 1924 Cleveland. Boxrec once again has weights listed for this bout but there was no weigh in. It was a catchweights fight and no first hand account lists any weights other than to say Tunney looked to be about 185 and looked to have 20 or 25 pounds on Greb. Greb won the majority of newspaper decisions for that fight.

In 1925 he fought Quintin Romero Rojas who was Rickards second version of Firpo. He imported Rojas to the USA to build him up as an attraction for Dempsey to slaughter just like Firpo only Rojas couldn't keep winning so he never made it that far. He notched a win over future HW champ Jack Sharkey before tangling with Greb and losing a wide decision.

He also fought Ed Smith and Ralph Brooks that year. Both guys were popular Kansas HWs whose records are incomplete on boxrec. Both stood 6' or more and both weighed 190 or more. Greb knocked one out and won an easy decision over the other.

Now, you can argue that a lot of the HWs Greb fought were cannon fodder but was his HW record any worse than Miske's, Carpentiers, Brennans, etc? No. I don't think so. Furthermore, as a guy who could make 158 on the day of a fight he didn't have to face those guys. He could have easily done what the vast majority of MWs did then and now and drawn a line saying he wouldn't fight guys that big. He didn't, he went out of his way to go after those guys and one thing that's striking is that you could make an argument very easily that Greb only lost once to one HW in his entire career despite fighting dozens in dozens of bouts and that was Tunney in 1925 when he was well past it. That's a pretty striking statistic for a guy who made 159 in his last fight.

 

repeat post

 

Do I keep mentioning it? If I do MAYBE its because idiots like yourself love to wet themselves about how Gibbons was Dempsey's best opponent. MAYBE its because your hero CHOSE to go out of his way and fight the LOSER of this fight. MAYBE its because it was billed by his promoter (you know the guy you Dempsey nuthuggers hide behind for ducking Wills) as the winner fights Dempsey. MAYBE I just like watching moronic fanboys squirm. But yes, MAYBE if Greb had fought and beat Wills then MAYBE we could say he deserved a title shot. MAYBE if Gibbons beat Wills we could say he did. Instead we can say Greb didn't beat Wills and Gibbons and didn't beat Greb so Gibbons out of three DEFINATELY didn't deserve a shot... but your hero gave him one anyway rather than fight someone who actually stood and a chance and who actually deserved it. So theres that.

We aren't talking about NOW dumbass, we are talking about THEN. It didn't happen all of the time then. You know, when this fight was staged? Im not in the business of backwards second guessing fights based on an artificial time travelers standards of a century later. Furthermore, when Floyd Mayweather pulled this **** against Marquez he was rightly criticized for it. So lets not pretend that such a thing wouldnt be frowned upon today. Why should Gibbons be given a pass for twice taking unfair advantage?? Oh, I know why, because it serves your argument.

Greb never made any distinction between fighting Dempsey in 8, 10, 12, or 15 rounds. Go find me the first hand quote, not some quote with no provenance written 30 or 60 years later, where Greb actually wanted a short fight with Dempsey. Where he pursued it. Never happened. Nobody has researched Greb on the face of the earth more than me (certainly not you) and I have never once found a legitimate first hand quote taken during his life where he says that he wants a short fight because Dempsey hit too hard. Again, never happened. And why would he? Dempsey was an early round fighter. He has two KOs after the 8th round. Three after the seventh if you include his pocket pool "KO" of Sharkey (which I don't). One of those KOs was against a nobody in 1915 and the other was against Brennan in a fight he was losing, just like the Sharkey fight. You really want to argue that Dempsey was some kind of stamina machine and was going to wear Greb down? The funny thing is that my point about Greb sparring Dempsey was simply in passing but you Dempsey nuthuggers have such a problem with the fact that hero struggled in sparring with the same guy he just happened to duck that this is the point you seized on in that paragraph. LOL.

No, Im not reaching. That's what the press said and what they expected. The difference between you and I is that I actually read the contemporary press from that era and that was the context of the time. You may not like it because it puts someone like yourself who doesn't know what hes talking about at a severe disadvantage but it was you who went to boxrec and wanted to play armchair expert, not me. You opened that can of worms. Rickard billed the bout as a HW elimination with the winner to meet Dempsey. You can go back and read that in the same newspapers that expected Gibbons to knock out Greb. I realize its more time consuming than jumping onto boxrec but that's what real research is.

Oh sure, there just HAD TO BE ANOTHER REASON than the big bad Dempsey was scared of the itty bitty Greb. LOL. I guess there was another reason why Dempsey consistently fought less threatening opposition throughout his entire reign. I mean, when you fight the loser of this bout instead of the winner, or the winner of the black elimination staged the month previous, its pretty obvious what was going on.

I love the circular logic. Dempsey nuthuggers are perfectly content with Dempsey defending against Carpentier and Gibbons but bring up the guy who punked him in sparring, dominated Gibbons, and made Carpentier run for his mammy and suddenly the burden of proof is on me to show who Greb beat to deserve a shot. If that's the case lets compare who Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, and Firpo beat to deserve a shot. Because Greb 3 of those guys and a lot of the guys that they all beat. Youre going to have a hard time separating Greb out from the rest of the pack as having a weaker HW resume if that's your line of argument. LOL.

A better question is why Dempsey didn't but I think we both know that answer:scaredas:

First of all, a MW saying he MIGHT have problems with the HW champion in a long fight is supposed to the same thing as an admission that he couldnt win a long fight? I think not. But, go ahead and post them. Put your money where your mouth is. Im betting this time next year you still haven't come up with any. Because the reality is that Greb didn't care if he fought Dempsey in a short or long contest just as long as he fought him. I can post DOZENS of verifiable first hand quotes from him saying just that. I quoted plenty and cited them in my book. Until you can do the same you are just aping the same old party line that has absolutely no verification. Anyone, ANYONE on here, I challenge to find me an article from Greb's lifetime where he is quoted in the first person as admitting some trepidation at fighting Dempsey over any length. I'll be waiting right here.

 

That's a nice long diatribe but it totally ignores the FACT that Dempsey was offered more than one handsome purse for fighting Greb from bonafide legitimate promoters. Just like he was for Wills and just like against Wills he ignored all offers (unless you want to count the phony offer from Dempsey's close friend Floyd Fitzsimmons which never amounted to anything). So what excuse would you like to pick this time since they are falling by the wayside? Was the money not there? WRONG. Was Greb less deserving than anyone else Dempsey fought? WRONG. Was Greb scared? WRONG. What? You said yourself "why didn't they fight" and the answer is obvious to anyone. Greb actually stood a real chance of beating Dempsey or at worst making him look bad. If that happens Dempsey's marketability is either zero or takes a hit. In that regard it was a fight that was much too great a risk for the reward despite the fact that if Dempsey was the big badass tough guy that his fans think he was it would have been an easy payday. See that's the problem here. Dempsey and Kearns were never anywhere near as confident of Dempsey's ability as his starry eyed fans. Dempsey fan: "Harry Wills was made to order for Dempsey, that's a one round knockout." My answer: ****ING FIGHT HIM AND PROVE IT. That fight could have been held in any number of locations for Dempsey biggest purse and if he really was that badass he would have knocked Wills out and become Paul Bunyon and JP Morgan rolled into one. He knew that wasn't going to happen so he made damn sure the fight didn't. Dempsey fan: "Harry Greb was too small, that's a one round knockout." Answer: Again, if Dempsey were that badass then take your payday knock him out and say 'see, I told ya so.' He knew that best case scenario he would have been chasing Greb around the ring swinging for the fences and missing. He might have won on aggression and might have even caught Greb and stopped him BUT he might just as easily have worn himself out swinging at ether for five rounds and found himself on the end of a typical Greb shellacking for another 5 or 10 rounds and then what? So you aren't going to fight Wills because hes too scary and you aren't going to fight Greb because hes too risky, so the next stop on the line has to be a white guy you can beat and Gibbons was the next guy in line. And guess what, he beat Gibbons what a shocker and in doing so those same promoters that you rambled on and on about lost a ****load of money and Dempsey made barely more than he would have with Greb. But, for Dempsey and Kearns it was win win, they got paid (most of their money, not all), Dempsey won (albeit in boring fashion) and the gravy train got to roll on. But fanboys like you who think Dempsey was so far up the legendary food chain think that the only reason we are talking about Greb is because Dempsey avoided him. That might be your perspective but I think most people who talk about Greb today do so because of his unparalleled record, his MW championship, the fact that he was the only man to defeat Tunney, the fact that he fought successfully against opponents ranging in weight from 137 pounds to 210 pounds, that he fought and defeated more HOFers than anyone else enshrined in the HOF, should I go on? To me, and Im sure most others who actually care to study Greb, the fact that Dempsey ducked him is rather a small footnote when you consider that Dempsey himself fought 7 HOFers and of those 7 five spent the majority of their careers at LHW. So the fact that Dempsey would avoid a LHW (who beat four of those five) is an interesting fact but a side note to a career that ****s all over the ducker.

It has nothing to do with need. Do you think Greb cared in 1922 what some guy who doesn't even understand that era thought in 2016? No. He didn't. He wanted to challenge himself and ultimately win and prove he was the baddest man on the planet. Need didn't factor into the equation. Deserved, yes that does, because if you can justify Dempsey's title defenses then how can you justify Greb not deserving a title shot?

I calls em likes I sees em "dempsey1234". LOL.

Nobody is whining. Youre the dumbass that came on here posting about four "heavyweight" fights without even knowing that none of them were even held at the LHW limit much less HW as a means of trying to illustrate that Greb wasn't the HW challenger hes cracked up to be. LOL at his first round with Willard being a game changer. Good lord. He took a fat old man who hadn't fought in three years, whod had one fight in five years, who trained like he was preparing for a hotdog eating competition and who was never very good to begin with and knocked him down a bunch of times by literally standing over him and battering him every single time he got an inch of the canvas yeah, it was a game changer alright. It redefined how the rules were applied the HW champion for the next 7 years. Its funny, you think anyone would be impressed with that performance because when I showed that fight to my trainer 22 years ago (back when I was a wet behind the ears know nothing Dempsey fan as well) I got laughed at told that my sparring partner and myself (both of whom had only been boxing about a week) could beat the **** out of Dempsey and Willard on the same day they looked so bad. Yeah, it takes a ton of skill to knock down a fat sack of suet who stands in front of you with his hands at his waist and his chin straight in the air begging to be clobbered. If the few are the only ones whining and crying about Dempsey being an overrated ducker then why does Burt always ***** and moan about Dempsey being so unpopular on here?

You've got a lot of research to catch up on youngin, get back to me with all of those Greb being afraid of Dempsey articles asap. I cant wait to read them.

 

The name Billy Miske means nothing to you? Hint: he's the guy Tommy Gibbons said hit harder than Dempsey.

 

And Ive asked you numerous times only for you to run and hide who exactly did Dempsey beat? Who exactly did Brennan, Miske, Carpentier, Gibbons, and Firpo beat? Im still waiting. Why do you have the bar so artificially high for Greb and Wills other than the fact that the glaringly obvious answer is that Dempsey looks like **** for not fighting them but fighting guys who weren't nearly as threatening?

Then Dempsey and his challengers have a lot of fluff in their records because they were all fighting the same guys and not always looking as good as Greb doing it.

And yet he remains one of the better names on Dempsey's resume despite fighting Dempsey with no training straight out of the naval shipyards just to get a payday.

I guess you never saw him timing your hero, outspeeding him despite Dempsey supposedly being so fast, tying the supposedly super strong Dempsey up on the inside, and wobbling him? Greb never had one 10th the trouble with Brennan that Dempsey did. Brennan was the same size as Dempsey, punched hard, and outboxed Dempsey as well. Greb beat the main four times the year before Brennan got a title shot and in the year between those losses and getting the title Brennan did nothing. But you can defend Dempsey defending against Brennan over Greb and somehow convince yourself that him looking like **** against what you say is one of the best HWs Greb faced (despite fighting two of Dempsey's other challengers) was an aberration and not evidence that maybe Dempsey was all too human and not head and shoulders above Greb as you want to fantasize. As for what Brennan or any of Greb's other opponents weighed relative to Dempsey that's a weak argument as well. Dempsey weighed 185 for most of 1918 when a fight with him and Greb was first hanging fire. He weighed 187 for 1919, 188 for 1920, 1921, and 1923 when he fought Gibbons. The guy wasn't a monster, he was right in the same wheel house as the majority of the HWs I listed above. A shade over 6' and between 185 and 190.

I just did. If Bill Brennan was nowhere near Dempsey in terms of power, speed, strength or ability then how did he do so well against a prime Dempsey in top physical condition? How did he wobble him and split his ear to the point where blood was cascading down his shoulder? What about Gibbons? Greb made Gibbons look like he was standing still and Gibbons did the same thing to Dempsey. That's the problem with your Spinks ****ogy. Tyson actually fought Spinks. He didn't go and fight Dwight Qawi and turn in a less impressive performance than Spinks and then refuse to fight Spinks because Spinks was too easy for him, LOL. And most importantly that's the point. The point is that based on his accomplishments Greb should have gotten the shot. Because frankly we aren't arguing who would win. That's decided in the ring and before that happens its all just opinion. We are arguing who deserved to go to the big dance and your argument is indefensible. Spinks got his shot. Jones got his shot. Greb didn't and frankly he deserved a shot at the title FAR more than Spinks and Jones ever did based on their relative accomplishments at HW. Prior to Holmes defending against Spinks Spinks had never once faced a HW much less a HW contender. Jones had never faced a HW, much less a HW contender, even in the watered down HW division that he jumped into. Those guys could have chosen NOT to fight the LHWs and nobody would have said a word. The difference is Greb did fight and defeat a whole host of HW contenders every bit as impressive as anyone Dempsey defended against and more successfully. Dempsey ducked Greb. So your ****ogy hurts you and your argument.

Sportswriters don't dictate who gets fights or who wins them. If I had a nickel for every sportswriter who predicted one thing and ended up eating his hat Id be ****** Buffet. I think its hilarious how you will cherry pick the odd article here and there that even admits Greb could give Dempsey problems from one of Dempseys paid supporters and youll bring up weights, and ****ogies that you think prove Dempsey would beat Greb but completely tiptoe around the bold fact that Greb was beating all of the guys Dempsey and his opponents were often times as impressively and as decisively in his own fashion if not more so than those guys, but somehow you want to question why he should get a shot and defend Dempsey and the guys he cherry picked to defend against? Talk about mental gymnastics. It must be tiring being a Dempsey fan. I can tell you its entertaining for the rest of us to watch you guys squirm.

 

One of the comical things about trying to minimize Greb's accomplishments at HW in favor of Dempsey and his opposition, besides the fact that Greb beat or was ducked by most of them, is the fact that many of those guys dempsey1234 lists as "fluff" were indeed guys that Greb fought specifically because Dempsey was in negotiations with them to defend (and when I say negotiations I mean they were approached by Dempsey and Kearns, offered a shot, and sites were being scouted, in short Kearns and Dempsey actively wanted to face these guys) and Greb wanted to beat them before hand in order to jump into their place: Gunboat Smith, Bill Brennan, Bartley Madden, Rojas, Weinert, Roper, etc. All of those guys at one time or another were mentioned as potential opponents for Dempsey by both Dempsey and Kearns and were in talks to fight the champion only to run into Greb. In that regard what does that say about Dempsey. Because we all know his entire championship reign was nothing more than fluff, but while he was padding his record, making money, and avoiding his real contenders, as indefensible as his nuthuggers find his actual defenses, those guys above were lined up by Dempsey and Kearns as defenses as well and if you think they were fluff, and that bad, and that undeserving what does that say about Dempsey's motivation, and what does that say that about his unwillingness to go anywhere near the guy who beat all of them?

That's the real reason why these guys don't want you to mention Greb's name in the same sentence as Dempsey because their only defense for Dempsey is to **** all over Greb's accomplishments and status as a contender but by doing so it ****s all over the Dempsey, the guys he defended against, and his choices as champion shining a harsh light on him and making him look a hell of a lot worse than the fantasy that they would rather believe.