Greb/Walker vs Hagler

Head-to-Head assessment without film?

Greb might have the superior resume, and one might have a blind bet on him beating Hagler, I suppose. But, it would be nothing but a leap of faith.

 

I don't call watching 5-10 minute snippets of film watching someone fight. Because in my opinion its not enough video to gain enough info to have a realistic opinion of the fighters.
But Yes if you consider watching those fragmented pieces of film and compare that to watching a fight in it entirety, then I've watched Walker fight many times.
Personally though watching snippets of old fights is like a new boxing fan only watching highlights of a favorite fighter.
Its gives some info, but not enough to have a realistic opinion. GOOD or BAD.
If you have a Walker or Greb fight in its ENTIRETY,or have a idea where I can watch one, I will gladly watch it and may come back with a different opinion. Unlike most posters on this site, I don't have blinders on. And have no problem admitting I'm wrong, and changing my opinion.

 

Harry Greb vs. Tiger Flowers (2nd meeting)
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Harry Greb 159 lbs lost to Tiger Flowers 159 lbs by SD in round 15 of 15

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• Date: 1926-02-26
• Location: Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USA
• Referee: Ed Smith
• Judge: Charles F Mathison
• Judge: Tom Flynn

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• World Middleweight Title

Notes
World Middleweight Title Most experts thought that Greb won this fight. Frank Getty of the United Press stated that "many experts figured that the worst the former champion should have had was a draw, for Greb was the stronger puncher and at times had Flowers in real trouble." Hype Igoe stated that "the decision was met with deathly silence by the crowd. To some it was a just verdict. To others it was unfair to Greb..My own tally had Greb out in front by a margin of two rounds- five for Flowers, seven for Greb and the others even." Regis Welsh of the Pittsburgh Post had Greb winning 8-5-2 on rounds. Greb did suffer a cut eyebrow in round 3, his first since he fought Bob Roper in Buffalo. Greb fought flat-footed and was wild, not in his best form. Referee Smith voted for Greb while both judges favored Flowers.

 

It's more than just a snippets, although it's true that most fights are not fully available. Here you can see Walker vs Schmeling for example:

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Both greb and walker beat hagler in interesting bouts...

 

I have Hagler beating both, outlasting Walker and outskilling Greb.

 

It's difficult to pin-point the causes of bad decisions in boxing, at the best of times. And, with there being the potential for prejudices of all kinds in play (not to mention the internal politics and commercial aspects of the sport), it would be foolhardy to default to one cause, just because appearances make it seem obvious.

 

From the few write-ups I just read, it sounds like Flowers has deserves to be at least 2-1, if not 3-0 against Greb:

FIGHT 1:

Lewie Little, Toledo Sports Critics Say Tiger Flowers Beat Greb, Nashville Banner, August 31, 1924

“Tiger Flowers, ebony-hued, rubber-bodied son of Georgia, got a raw deal in his fight with Harry Greb in Fremont, O., last week, according to stories of the fight written by sports authorities connected with newspapers in Toledo, Cincinnati, and Grand Rapids.”

Quotes sports critic, George R. Pulford: “Tiger Flowers took seven of the ten rounds from Harry Greb at Fremont Thursday, winning the popular decision beyond all question of doubt, administering a boxing lesson to the middleweight champion before several thousand spectators and proving himself one of the world’s greatest and cleanest boxers….Flowers was out in front and going away. There wasn’t a single minute when Greb stacked up evenly with the Atlanta streak. He was out-boxed, out-punched, and out-speeded from gong to gong.”


Says Frank G. Menke: Flowers-Greb mix-up. Sports writers pick Flowers easy winner. Greb on defensive, interview with Greb, Palladium-Item (King Feature Syndicate), September 23, 1924

“Tiger Flowers is the unofficial middleweight champion of the universe, in the opinion of the vast majority of sporting editors who saw him punch and pound Harry Greb in Fremont, Ohio, a month ago.

After the fight, there was sent out of Fremont a story by a press association writer who stated that Greb won eight of the ten rounds. Of all the men who reported the fight, he was the only man who gave Greb any definite margin of victory.

Why that man sent out such a story--or through what sort of smoked glasses he viewed the fight--is one of those inexplicable mysteries of ringdom and press.
This is what James W. Schlemmer, sporting editor of the Akron, Ohio Press had to say about the affair:
"Flowers defeated Greb. He piled up enough points to make him stand out clearly as the better man. And Flowers did this despite the fac that Greb's very own hand picked referee, Eddie Kennedy, of Pittsburgh, was the third man in the ring. Kennedy was a farce.
"Flowers had the misfortune to have been born a colored man. Reputed to be the 'whitest black man in the game,' Flowers lived up to the reputation.
"Tiger got a square deal from most of the fans, but in the opinion of this writer, press correspondents from 'way down East,' and others who were prejudiced to the point of saying that Greb won eight rounds of the fight, are deliberately lying to save the reputation of a world's champ who was licked by a better man, and a colored one.

"Flowers didn't have a chance at the title Greb holds. The cards were stacked against this black man." ...
Head-line Favors Flowers.
The Toledo (Ohio) News-Bee carried an eight column first page headline after the fight which said: "Tiger Flowers Trounces Greb"

And Dick Meade, its sporting editor in reviewing the melee, which he awarded to Flowers by a wide margin, said:
"Tiger Flowers forced Harry Greb to his utmost to keep himself from being annihilated..."

...
E.W. Dickerson, famous referee and sporting editor of the Grand Rapids Herald, was at ringside. In his judgment Flowers won. After the battle he wrote a story which embraced an interview with Greb. This is what Greb said. “Flowers is the greatest boxer I ever faced in the ring. He can beat Heavyweight Champion Jack Dempsey in a contest of 10 rounds. He gave me a fight I will never forget and showed me a lot of things about boxing that I never knew before.

But in the face of all that, some press association reporter sent a story which was printed throughout the country, which stated that ‘Greb was an easy winner, scoring eight of the ten rounds.’

Why?”


FIGHT 2:

Davis J. Walsh, Flowers Wins Title in Rough-and-Tumble Scrap, Dayton Herald, Feb. 27, 1926:

“Some of the merry villagers seemed to think Greb was short-changed, but that idea was all to the falsetto. Flowers got the decision and earned it. He fought a courageous, if not a sensational fight, and outscored Greb in the majority of exchanges.”


Associated Press, 30-Year-Old Negro Dethrones Veteran Pittsburgh Boxer, Press and Sun-Bulletin (Feb. 27, 1926):

“Flowers, in the opinion of newspapermen, had at least six of the rounds, while Greb could muster no more than five and four were even.”

Associated Press, Tiger Flowers Wins Middleweight Crown, Boston Globe, Feb. 27, 1926:
“Boxing critics argued that the margin obtained by Flowers was too small for a title to change hands, although it was generally admitted that the negro had won under the rules of the New York State Athletic Commission, which provide that all bouts must be decided by rounds gained.”

Associated Press, Tiger Flowers Plans Trip to Europe for Exhibition Matches, Morning Call, Feb. 28, 1926
“Greb, whose unexpected defeat was attributed in some measure to careless training, today said he had no complaint to make and that he would endeavor to get back in winning form for a return bout with Flowers.”


Harry Keck, Ring Tradition Says Challenger Must Beat Champ to Win Title, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Feb. 28, 1926)
(Pittsburgh writer Harry Keck scored the fight six rounds a piece with three even).

Paul Gallico, Just Another Post Mortem, New York Daily News (March 1, 1926):
"I scored the fight with Flowers winning by a shade, the shade being awarded him on his cleaner fighting and cleverer boxing. My actual round score gave six to Greb, six to Flowers, and three even, but the winner of the entire fight figured as a whole was Flowers."


Fight 3:

AP, Tiger Flowers Hangs on to Middleweight Ring Title, Baltimore Sun, August 20, 1926:

“Greb, withstanding a terrific body attack most of the way, flashed a sensational finish that had the Garden in a frenzy in the last two rounds, but this desperate rally was not sufficient to offset the big margin which the rugged Negro had piled up previously.

Although a majority of ringside critics gave Flowers a decisive margin on points, the official verdict was not unanimous. It was announced that both judges gave the decision to the champion, but that the referee, Jimmy Crowley, cast his ballot in Greb’s favor.

In the newspaper consensus, however, the Tiger was credited with winning eight of the fifteen rounds, with six going to Greb and one regarded as even.”



Ed Van Every, Tiger Flowers Retains Middle Title, Reading Times, August 20, 1926:

“I’ll say this much for the verdict—Flowers could not have lost his title on tonight’s hectic affair: I could not have given him worse than a draw.”

 

Geez....Greb fighting a very good MW in close and exciting fights....with only 1 good eye. Not too bad, I think.

 

Right. It's still impressive (assuming that's true about his eye).

 

The treasure trove of research that the esteemed Klompton brings to these fights suggest other than your contention. Have you read his book?

 

As good as Hagler was, i doubt he replicates greb's record of Newspaper winning decisions if he is placed in he same matchups. That being said, he probably does score quite a few spectacular KOs in amongst the first class decision so it might have been really interesting to see if a dempsey Hagler match eventuated. And a Tunney Hagler series would have certainly been interesting even if Hagler probably starts an underdog.

Head to head though, i cant really see how a greb styled and sized fighter beats Marvin Hagler at his best. I think the best Greb could possibly hope for would be to confuse him early, maybe build up a lead and force him into throwing away a few early rounds like he did against Leonard and possibly hold on for a win. I cant see it against a prime Hagler but Hagler has failed to defeat lesser fighters than Harry Greb so it certainly not out of the question.

 

No, the few minutes that I spent skimming through articles on newspapers. com is about the sum of what I’ve read on their fights.

Do you recall whether the book discusses or explains the type of stories that I quoted?

 

Looked some more for a bit and I didn't see a single article that claimed either of Flowers' wins were gifts or robberies. Some people complained about the New York rounds-based scoring system in the second fight, but that seems to be it.

I did see a few claiming that Flowers was robbed in the first fight though, and one writer blamed it on race. And for what it's worth, at least one newspaper included a racist sketch of the fight that gave Flowers ape-like features and giant lips.