green george foreman 1970 vs Joe frazier 1970

Not happening. Fraziers style was to overpower his opposition, move them back and rough them up. He can do none of this against Foreman and any one punch by George starts the beginning of the end.

 

But what if Frazier is hitting George at long range like he hit Ali at long range?

Foreman is only pushing Frazier back once he was already too close. What if he's been hit already?

What if Frazier gets to land on Foreman like Ted Gullick did? Please tell me you saw that fight?

If you wAtch the chuvalo fight Frazier just attacked from angles when he could not push Chuvalo back. He was chopping each side of the tree instead of trying to run it over. Chuvalo would also get beaten to the punch as Frazier came in.

1970 Foreman was better than Chuvalo, but was he that much stronger?

 

Frazier by KO. George has said that Joe was diminished after facing Ali and that a prime Joe would have beaten him. I am going to take his word for it.

 

Yes but if strength was such a factor and let's say Chuvalo is only almost as strong as Foreman did this prove a problem to prime Joe Frazier?

Foreman beat Frazier by punching him in the head. He beat him because he landed first.


1970 Foreman pushing Frazier back after taking a punch to the head himself (on the way in) is not the same thing as Foreman pushing Frazier back without taking or getting ANYTHING thrown at him on the way in is it?

 

Ali had a reach over Joe too. And he had faster hands than Foreman, yet Frazier could beat Ali to the punch!

yes Foreman hits hard. So does Frazier.

yes Foreman was a fast starter but by what standard? Fraziers standard? George was slower of hand than Frazier. In 1970 he was winding up his punches like a cave man against Boone Kirkman.

so was Frazier.

so was Frazier.

in his second career. Ron Lyle did not hit as well as Frazier. Nor did Ali and Jimmy Young who all decked Foreman.



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But prime Frazier matches George or neutralizes much of this. He got around Ali's reach, he has faster hands, he was not a very fast starter but set a higher tempo.

 

Bear in mind that there were two Fraziers in 1970, Ellis I before he broke his leg, and Bob Foster after he healed from that fracture enough to return to competition.

I'm picking the Frazier of Ellis I to beat George, but hesitant about the Frazier working off injury induced rust with BF.

Foreman was 15-0 when he went into Peralta I to take a ten round decision over Gregorio in the MSG semifinal to Frazier-Ellis I. He'd also gone the ten round distance with Levi Forte two months earlier, the eight round limit with Roberto Davila two months before that, and had experienced getting stunned for the first time by Jack O'Halloran in his last bout before Peralta I the previous month. The then Mecca of Boxing was a familiar venue for him, not a place where he was going to get "stage fright." He'd halted Wepner on cuts in three at MSG.

George could be argued as having a better resume with better experience than Leon Spinks had going into Ali I by February 1970.

Both Frazier and Foreman had five opening round knockouts at this stage, and Joe had the better one between them over Ziggy. He also had an opening round knockdown over Machen in just his 13th bout, followed by the sixth round knockout over Doug Jones. Bolstered by the scare in Bonavena I, and experience of having gone the championship distance in Bonavena II, his ability to start fast and recover from crisis wasn't questioned as it would be later, just as Foreman had seemed to prove his ability to dominate over ten rounds.

Speed might be a major difference here. If George lands the same opening round uppercut Manual Ramos nailed Joe with in their opening stanza, Frazier could be in very, very serious trouble, but Smoke was still resilient enough in 1969 to retaliate before that round was over by nearly knocking down Pulgarcito as those first three minutes drew to a close.

This is something I need to think about further, but in February 1970, Foreman could go ten rounds, while Frazier did have the capacity to start fast and recover well when he did get stunned. George would have outweighed Joe by around half a dozen pounds for whatever that's worth. Frazier wasn't yet ravaged by the high blood pressure and kidney problems which would hospitalize him after the FOTC, and came out of the 15 rounds of Bonavena II in good condition. Nor was he hindered with the after effects of the broken ankle he would need much of 1970 to recover from after Ellis I.

Although I think February 16, 1970 would have still been too early for Foreman to challenge Frazier, it would have been interesting for George to try, especially knowing he went ten full rounds with a highly accomplished veteran in Peralta during the Frazier-Ellis I semifinal.

 

Doesn't say much for Frazier if he has to be matched with a novice level Foreman to have a chance of winning!

 

Joe never had the power to move Foreman. This was evident in the less than seven total rounds he lasted against George when they did fight one another. Frazier was able to hit Ali at mid distance because Ali was always open for the left hook. Foreman was not.

Only on ESB does Frazier somehow post a win against a fighter he fought twice and was completely destroyed both times. No boxing magic makes the outcome a win for Frazier. Any one single punch from George can end the bout and there is no way Frazier avoids these punches enough to be able to post a win. Again no chance a real world KO2, six knockdowns a bout akin to Dempsey-Willard and a KO 5 which ended in Fraziers teeth scattered all over the ring and his mouth pouring blood can be transformed into a win for Frazier. Does not matter, within logical reason, what scenario you Frazier fans try to conceive.

 

There was nothing in Ingo-Patterson I to suggest that Floyd would reverse history so dramatically in two rematches. There was nothing in Cuevas-Angel Espada I to suggest what an epic war of attrition their first rematch would become, with Espada actually driving Pipino against the ropes in furious action. Cuevas later had to apply a career best display of surprising boxing skill to conclude their trilogy.

Wepner made it clear with Jim Clash that the shot Ali put him down and out with as time was running out in round 15 did the job because Chuck was exhausted and weakened by then, but it was not a punch which would have had the same effect earlier in their title match.

Foreman never produced a knockdown beyond round five until his comeback. We all know what Frazier did in round 15 of the FOTC. We also know that a hopelessly shot Joe did inflict facial damage on George in their rematch with his hook (objective physical proof that GF was indeed available to be hit by it), and Smoke was proficient at inflicting facial damage Foreman could be susceptible to. (Even Ali looked like he'd been in a fight after Frazier.)

Considerably more than a single punch was required for George to dethrone Joe, and if Ali had the power to put Foreman down and out at the end of eight rounds (in a situation where George was essentially finished after five), then certainly Frazier had the power to do it to Foreman after eight, should he be able to drag George into deeper water. He had Bugner, Ali and Mathis all down in double digit rounds, and had Ali on the brink during round ten in Manila by Ali's own admission immediately after, during his post fight interview with Don Dunphy while resting on his knee in ring center.

It comes down to duration. Although Joe doesn't have the power to stun Foreman over the first half of a bout scheduled for the championship distance, he did prove the ability to inflict facial damage with his hook on George during their rematch in June 1976. Foreman never produced a knockdown beyond round five from 1969 to 1977, a span of 47 bouts. If a 15 rounder goes beyond the halfway point, and the Frazier of early 1970 is still there, it may well be George's diminished punching power due to muscular fatigue which leaves him foundering and less punch resistant.

Best for best, with no fractured ankle following Ellis I, and no FOTC in a situation where Ali never returns from exile, Foreman-Frazier I would have been a tough proposition for a 26-27 year old Smoke. But if George did succeed in dispatching Joe quickly, Frazier would not have been any more physically depleted and diminished for their rematch than Patterson was for Ingo II.

A hopelessly shot post Manila Joe ravaged with arthritis showed good adaptation for Foreman II, but no longer had the physical capacity to successfully carry out an extension plan for George. Still, Foreman-Frazier II reveals how Joe would have changed his approach in a rematch years earlier, and we do see Smoke apply movement with angles against Chuvalo and Stander.

Does peak Frazier do in Foreman II what Angel Espada did in Cuevas II, and take George past the halfway mark in a championship distance rematch? If Joe can pull this off, Foreman could be in a great deal of trouble. Foreman-Frazier II suggests a younger Smoke in his late 20's without the impairments he had by 1976, and 20-25 pounds lighter, could indeed have taken George past the halfway point of a 15 rounder.

Peralta proved twice that Joe would not have been too small to take Foreman into double digit rounds, while Chuvalo and Stander demonstrate that he could apply movement while in his 20's. And in their rematch, Frazier managed to stay on his feet longer than anybody else George dropped during his first career. Bonavena I proved he could get up to win, and Joe was competent in rematches of which Foreman only had two (Frazier and Peralta of course.)