greeter fighter - Duran or Ali

I agree on most of that. But if that's generally regarded as Ali's greatest win, which I think most do, it should be compared to Duran's greatest win.

But leaving aside that fight against Leonard, you don't think Duran's win against Barkley was immense?
People might say that Barkley wasn't an ATG, but he does have 2 legitimate wins over Hearns.
Honestly?
I think that win was a better achievement than Ali's win over Foreman too. Duran was around 38 and considered washed up. Finished.
What he did in that ring that night was magical.

 

I think what Duran did was amazing. IMO it doesn't compare with cleaning out the heavyweight decision in the 60s when you're young, being banned from boxing when you're 26 27, 28, and 29 which are an athlete's prime, and then coming back to clean out the division again in the 70s when you're past your prime and your opponents are in theirs. Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Norton, and Foreman are nice scalps. All this talk about the Brawl In Monteal got me thinking. How can you discuss the results of that match without discussing the results of the No Mas match.? Do you think Ali who fought ten rounds with a broken jaw would quit? Would we discuss Louis-Schmeling 1 without discussing Louis Schmeling 2?

 

Jersey Joe Walcott and Floyd Mayweather have amazing records and that's why they're in the International Boxing Hall of Fame. I said several times in this thread I use them as arbiters of greatness so it's not an argument of convenience. Muhammad Ali was 8-3 against his fellow members. What was Duran's?

 

Do you honestly think I'm going to bother with doing a top 100 just because you want me to ? Just look at McGrain's list, and if you don't know who these guys are or what they have done to be ranked above Tyson, then just do some research, Tyson wasn't all that. Anyway, Duran is 4-5 against them. But it's not just stats that matter, the guys that defeated Duran were all FAR better than anybody Ali ever faced, and Duran was past his prime and multiple weight classes above his best in all of them, so how can you say a past his prime Duran losing against guys of such quality and in far worse circumstances than Ali is that bad ? What about the guys that Duran did actually beat like Esteban De Jesus and Ken Buchanan ? Both of whom are better than anybody Ali ever faced aside from Frazier, Foreman and debatably Liston. Or Palomino and Cuevas, both of whom were legitimate champions, the former gave Benitez ( Who is better than anybody Ali ever faced ) the fight of his life and the latter was destroying fighters before Hearns came along. Of Course we then have beating a prime Ray Leonard, who ranks up there with Ali himself, when did Ali ever face anyone like Leonard while having a size disadvantage ? Against Hagler, Hearns, Benitez and the rematches with Leonard, Duran was 3-4 weight classes above his natural weight and aging while facing guys Ali never even dreamed of, Ali on the other hand arguably lost to the likes of Norton, Young and Shavers during the twilight of his career, which do you think is worse ?

 

I looked at Matt McGrain's list as you instructed me to. He has Muhammad Ali listed at 7 and Roberto Duran at 10. Thank you for directing me to it and have a nice day.

 

#01. Harry Greb
#02. Sam Langford
#03. Henry Armstrong
#04. Sugar Ray Robinson
#05. Ezzard Charles
#06. Benny Leonard
#07. Muhammad Ali
#08. Roberto Duran
#09. Bob Fitzsimmons
#10. Archie Moore
#11. Joe Louis
#12. Tony Canzoneri
#13. Willie Pep
#14. Barney Ross
#15. Jimmy Wilde
#16. Terry McGovern
#17. Packey McFarland
#18. Ray Leonard
#19. Joe Gans
#20. Jimmy McLarnin
#21. Tommy Loughran
#22. Sandy Saddler
#23. Jack Britton
#24. Mickey Walker
#25. Gene Tunney
#26. Emile Griffith
#27. Manny Pacquiao
#28. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
#29. Carlos Ortiz
#30. Kid Gavilan
#31. Carlos Monzon
#32. Marvin Hagler
#33. Ruben Olivares
#34. Fighting Harada
#35. Ike Williams
#36. Michael Spinks
#37. Eder Jofre
#38. Roy Jones Jr.
#39. George Dixon
#40. Charley Burley
#41. Tommy Hearns
#42. Freddie Welsh
#43. Holman Williams
#44. Lou Ambers
#45. Tommy Gibbons
#46. Jose Napoles
#47. Bernard Hopkins
#48. Julio Cesar Chavez
#49. Miguel Canto
#50. Manuel Ortiz
#51. Evander Holyfield
#52. Midget Wolgast
#53. Pernell Whitaker
#54. Abe Attell
#55. Alexis Arguello
#56. Jimmy Bivins
#57. Jake LaMotta
#58. Vicente Saldivar
#59. Larry Holmes
#60. Salvador Sanchez
#61. Pete Herman
#62. Maxie Rosenbloom
#63. Billy Conn
#64. Luis Rodriguez
#65. Johnny Dundee
#66. Johnny Kilbane
#67. Tommy Ryan
#68. Rocky Marciano
#69. John Henry Lewis
#70. Lloyd Marshall
#71. Wilfredo Gomez
#72. Mike Gibbons
#73. Wilfred Benitez
#74. Teddy Yarosz
#75. Fidel LaBarba
#76. Ted Kid Lewis
#77. Stanley Ketchel
#78. Pete Herman
#79. Eusebio Pedroza
#80. Rodolfo Casanova
#81. Cocoa Kid
#82. Harold Johnson
#83. Newsboy Brown
#84. James Toney
#85. Mike O'Dowd
#86. Baby Arizmendi
#87. Jack Delaney
#88. Freddie Miller
#89. Kid Williams
#90. Panama Al Brown
#91. Pancho Villa
#92. Bert Lytell
#93. Beau Jack
#94. Leo Houck
#95. Sammy Angott
#96. Young Peter Jackson
#97. Frank Klaus
#98. Benny Lynch
#99. Willie Joyce
#100. Barbados Joe Walcott

 

Agreed. Leonard was levels above Foreman.

He was better than Ali himself IMO.N

 

Thank you for the list. Another list with Muhammad Ali over Roberto Duran. That being said I will let readers decide if a list of boxing greats without Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Lennox Lewis, and George Foreman is credible. Have a nice day.

 

I think people are having a hard time separating greatness from skill.

Ali Vs Duran is arguable In terms of greatness. Skill is so far from debate that I'm surprised the discussion is still being had.

Ali is a HW, it is much harder to be coordinated as a bigger person than it is as a smaller person if athletic potential is equal. Everyone in the Fab 4, add in Benitez too, is a more skilled pugilist than Ali when you consider all the facets of boxing skills. However, where he trumps them all arguably is in greatness. Even so, I rank Duran around 5 or 6, usually a place or two above Ali.

One thing that is oft repeated though that I do contend is that Ali had no orthodox skill and was reflexively defensive in his mastery. There's ample evidence of him parrying jabs and elbow blocking body shots, slipping inside and outside jabs and throwing counters over and around jabs. These are skills honed through hours of training. Many people repeat what they've heard and don't know how to communicate what they see or don't even know what it is that they're looking at. It is what it is.

 

That's a stupid way of doing it. All other weight classes suffer because one can't do it? No, it should be the over way around.

You've literally just named four aspects which Leonard was better at

Ali was every bit as good against Quarry here, as he was in the 60s. The slight - and it is only slight - difference in speed, is more than made up for by strength, toughness and experience.

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I've never once seen anyone use the Barkley fight for how much Duran had left in the tank Duran's last stand in a fight he won on nothing but skill and experience is now cited as how little he'd declined

It's plain and obvious Duran post Leonard had declined worse than Ali had post Foreman. Leon Spinks was better than Kirkland Laing...

I have addressed it

Duran lost to the beat fighters he fought. The reasons are obvious and have been spelled out to you. And so have the reasons why comparing directly Duran's record against his best opponents compared to Ali's is pointless. What matters is who they beat, and they're extremely close in those aspects.


As for the rest, I can't be arsed going through it. Point being, Duran's losses are not from a lack of skill and Duran was more skilled than Ali. Clearly so.

 

Tyson is still not in the top 100, so what's your point ? I never even said I ranked Duran above Ali, I have only said that Duran's win over Leonard is better than Ali's over Foreman and that his losses to the Fab 4 are overstated and thus compared him with the twilight of Ali's career to make my point of how those past prime losses shouldn't be judged too harshly on either side.

 

I don't know what you're trying to prove here, as I already explicitly said I have Ali above Duran earlier on the thread. I also gave you list of 100 boxers better than Mike Tyson. This is what you wanted, you got it.

And this list is almost two years old; I might have a couple other heavyweights in it but there's no chance Sonny Liston or Mike Tyson ever get in the top one hundred.

 

Boxing ability goes to Duran, easily.

Resume goes to Ali. He's been in the biggest fights ever and barely lost.

 

I never said Ali was more skilled than Duran. Who cares? Floyd Mayweather was arguably more skilled than both of them . The question was greatness . Greatness encompasses a lot more than skill, including heart. Ali had that in spades.

 

They don't suffer for their ATG ratings in a vacuum.

But if you compare them to heavyweights then it's irrelevant. You're basically telling one guy on your mark get set go but telling the other guy to wait 5 seconds just because. All that should matter is comparing wins, skill, and championships between heavies and lower divisions.

Ali praised Foremans ability to cut off the ring and abandoned his plan to stick and move. When did Leonard ever cut off the ring like that?

Foreman dropped guys like a sack of potatoes with his body shots and was frighteningly accurate and brutal, targeting the solar plexus, kidneys, etc. I would put him above Leonard for that as well.

Leonard never continuously used guard manipulation and walking guys into shots as well as Foreman did to Frazier. Show me an example of him dismantling a guy as good as Frazier by walking them into shots and manipulating them. Leonard wasn't even that kind of fighter, he liked to be light on his feet and throw fast combinations then move.

The Ali of the Quarry fight and the Ali at Zaire were totally different.

In addition, Ali wasn't standing there with his arms at his side gracefully dodging Foremans blows. You have absolutely no leg to stand on here.

I never said Duran didn't decline at all after 9 years. Im saying the fact he beat Barkley 9 years after Leonard in a much higher weight class means he was still obviously operating at world level and had more in the tank than Ali was post Zaire lol. That's pretty damn obvious. Ali never turned up another legendary performance post Zaire aside from Manilla which was a slug fest between two very shopworn older fighters.

Ok so you basically just want to ignore losses because many of them happened to be against several of his best opponents, gotcha.

Never said Duran lost because of a lack of skill or that Ali was more skilled.