Greg Page - An overhyped bum or a lost potential?

No, as in the past you ignore anything that doesn't suit your particular agenda and refuse to accept even the most obvious of facts no matter how many times they are forced down your throat. 10 times bitten, 11 times shy. It's an absolute waste of time.

 

Your post his full of logic gaps, as well as factual errors.

The politics were not complicated.

Holmes had been working with Don King and the WBC for 5 yrs.

Every once in awhile they'd ask him to defend against the top rated guy.

Page was the top rated guy and Holmes refused to fight him.

Holmes didn't fight Witherspoon instead of Page

Page wasn't the # 1 contender yet when that fight occured.

Holmes fought Frank and Frazier after Page was installed as the #1 contender.

Then, Holmes ran from the obligation of defending against #1 to the newly created IBF.

To say that Holmes reputation takes a hit by fighting Page is ludicrous, when he fought Frank and Frazier after Page was made # 1 contender.

Conversely, his reputation takes a hit for fighting them instead of the #1 Page.

Page wasn't done after the close Bey loss. He beat Coetzee for the WBA title.

Just because Holmes beat Bey, Witherspoon and Berbick, it doesn't mean Page didn't deserve a shot at Holmes.

Timing is important.

At the time Holmes bolted from the WBC title, Page was deserving of a title shot.

 

True. Page had a lot of talent, but was far from the complete package. He was somewhat overrated due to everyone comparing him to Ali. He ruined his career by becoming uninspired and fat. For me, Page and Witherspoon were the most talented of the young 80"s heavyweights. Sadly both became uninspired fat slobs, blowing their prime.

 

I'd probably add Dokes to those two. I'd possibly have him just ahead of Witherspoon who gets a lot of miles off the Holmes showing.

For me watching Dokes loss to Holyfield when he was way way past it showed just how good he might have been. Above the waist he looked ok but below he was Old Man River. Really good effort.

Here's something i have come to believe, and i reckon it's right - Dokes never actually had a proper peak or prime.

Where do we look to find it? He was still a developing fighter when he fought Weaver for the title. He may have been a bit lucky with the stoppage, it's debatable. Next fight he went 15 hard rounds with Weaver and by most accounts should have lost a narrow one. Next fight he was dusted and gone.

Indications are he was well into the midst of a drug problem by the time Coetzee rolled him and had actually "used" within two days of the bout. He was surely into it around the Weaver fights as well.

By the time he got rolling again he was not the same fighter. He fought spasmodically before ramping up around the turn of 88 and a handful of wins led to the Holyfield bout.

We saw glimpses of what Page and Witherspoon could do, as well as Thomas, Weaver and most of the 80's heavies. I just don't think we ever got the same level of preview from Dokes.

 

Don't waste your time encouraging him, he's been told all this before and things have been explained 100 different ways but you may as well talk to a brick wall.

Lets try and keep the thread closer to topic and enjoy some different banter to the norm :cheers

 

Completely and utterly agree with this stuff. He needed better guidance and absolutely needed a Futch or Dundee to round him out. A combination of motivator and trainer would have been nice.

 

The problem was King controlled most of the top 10, so to get good opponents and move up the rankings, one needed to fight other King fighters. The conflict of interest meant King didn't really care who won. It made for some good competitive matches, though.

If Page had stayed with Butch Lewis, he would have been more carefully matched and probably would have built up a big record, but may not faced a guy like Berbick, which was a loss, but also probably a good learning experience.

Then King gained control of the WBA title, too

It was kind of a catch 22 for Page and the other american top 10 guys in the early-mid '80's.

 

Yep. Muddy waters to navigate for sure. It sure was nice seeing Tyson come along and clean that mess up in about a year and a half.

But if he had a Dendee type guy who worked great with boxers, I tend to think he goes with Arum. Not King. And Bob was hardly protecting Tate or Weaver with their matches. But some pull was needed and the other guy around at the time was Ross Smith. So a guy did not have to be on that DKP bandwagon until say after Dokes/Weaver 1 & the ****ey/Holmes fights.

 

You know, I thought Dokes was maybe the best of the bunch. Back when he was light and used his legs and flew around the ring. His legs matched the handspeed. But he lost those legs, as well as coming in heavier and heavier, long before the first Weaver bout. The amount of succes he had after the loss of legs was kind of amazing. He moved those legs like a James Toney and here the guy was what, 24 and really only had the draw on his early fights where he wasn't sharp?

Speaking of which, that's actually a nice guage for the heavyweight up and comers. Have a tough bout where they have to dig deep and maybe drop a decision or like Dokes, got a draw. Usually you don't see that opponents name in a quickie rematch, do you? But Dokes sparked him out in a round. Very impressive thing to do and rarely seen. But it illustrates the pedigree.

Like Page, I think that Futch tough or Dundee or Freddie Brown do wonders for his career. Just polish things up a little more and they did pretty good without an A-1 corner.

Thinking about it more, Tate was still the best talent I saw coming out of that 76 timeframe. But he suffered too many brutal ko's as an amatuer and that Weaver ko just ruined him. His career just dropped off a cliff after that.

Tate actually has a stoppage win over Dokes as an amatuer. I've never seen it but that's no easy result to get. Trouble was Stevenson was so dominant that if Dokes got by Tate, he still had to deal with that guy.

Real tough terrain to navigate at the time and only 2 world title bouts. Imagine calling 2 world titles the good old days???!!!!

 

Dokes was a bit of a catch 22 with that weight and size, all of a sudden he went from winning feather fist awards to having decent power! It was a really interesting transition, but you are right in that he lost some with it.

We used to whine about 2 titles instead of one back then, who knew? hahahaha

Tate was very highly regarded for a while.

Pretty sure Dokes and Page both had awkward bouts against Jimmy Young too.

 

Okay, in other words, what I said has too many facts and dates, with a kicker of Page losing to several of the guys Holmes defeated.

In terms of heavyweight champions avoiding a challenge Holmes vs Page doesn't rate highly. I could easily name 10 better matches that never happened.

Page had his chances.

I laid it out with facts. Page had his chances. You're not going to offer a rebuttal on the numerous things I said. How can you? You're ignoring what I said far more than I ignore you. I said Page would have been a fine title choice for 1983, but Page's losses in 1982 and 1984 put him out of the picture.

Having said that, you are a big page fan, and sometimes during the talk I can learn a thing or two. So for me it's not a waste of time, and if you read what I write, you can learn too, which can be different than accepting it.

 

Page was a talented Ali wannabe. His main issue was he did not like to train.

 

What exactly do the folks who consider him to be an underachiever think he would have accomplished with a better work ethic? Does he beat Tubbs, Witherspoon or Douglas?

 

The Witherspoon fight was actually pretty close in reality and Page was a tub. I could see him rolling Holmes once he was declining and holding off the likes of Witherspoon, Tubbs, Thomas. He sure wouldn't be losing to the David Bey's.

In an ideal world he could have filled the gap between Holmes and Tyson. With both motivation and better handling trainer wise (as Zad alludes to) he would have had a decent chance of toppling Holmes around 83 and certainly thereafter.

It was fascinating watching footage emerge of Page knocking Tyson down in sparring for the Douglas fight. Sparring or not Tyson wasn't exactly susceptible to flash KD's, he had a solid set of whiskers. It looked like a funeral in there after Tyson hit the deck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS91f_zMwcM

Page actually predicted Douglas would beat Tyson pre fight. Go figure.

 

The Bey-Page fight was close, and it probably hurt Greg that he wasn't the aggressor in the fight. It wasn't like Bey overwhelmed him or anything.

Page had strong boxing ability, so he could get to Holmes in a variety of ways. As far as Berbick, Page was in the fight, possibly slightly ahead in the action, until the second, when Berbick went to his body, and Page broke his thumb. After that it was a wrap, but in some ways, an anomaly. Greg would've given Larry Hell, and then some. I'm thinking he beats him if they fought late '83.