Guide me to the lineal heavyweight champion please.

Holmes starts from 1980.

 

Jeffries, Louis and Ali retired and then came back. When someone retires them coming out of retirement is not a given and them coming back does not nullify their replacement.

 

Holmes is considered lineal from 1980.

Here's the consensus and accepted list. By all means make up your own rules and placements but the thread starter is trying to get his head around the facts not opinion. It's already complicated enough in places.

1. John L. Sullivan (1892) USA

2. James J. Corbett (1892 - 1897) USA

3. Bob Fitzsimmons (1897 - 1899) UK

4. James J. Jeffries (1899 - 1905) Retired. USA

5. Marvin Hart (1905 - 1906) USA

6. Tommy Burns (1906 - 1908) Canada

7. Jack Johnson (1908 - 1915) USA

8. Jess Willard (1915 - 1919) USA

9. Jack Dempsey (1919 - 1926) USA

10. Gene Tunney (1926 - 1928) Retired. USA

11. Max Schmeling (1930 - 1932) Germany

12. Jack Sharkey (1932 - 1933) USA

13. Primo Carnera (1933 - 1934) Italy

14. Max Baer (1934 - 1935) USA

15. James J. Braddock (1935 - 1937) USA

16. Joe Louis (1937 - 1949) Retired. USA

17. Ezzard Charles (1949 - 1951) USA

18. "Jersey" Joe Walcott (1951 - 1952) USA

19. Rocky Marciano (1952 - 1956) Retired. USA

20. Floyd Patterson (1956 - 1959) ** USA

21. Ingemar Johansson (1959 - 1960) Sweden

22. Floyd Patterson (1960 - 1962) ** USA

23. Charles "Sonny" Liston (1962 - 1964) USA

24. Muhammad Ali (1964 - 1971) *** USA

25. Joe Frazier (1971 - 1973) USA

26. George Foreman (1973 - 1974) ** USA

27. Muhammad Ali (1974 - 1978) *** USA

28. Leon Spinks (1978) USA

29. Muhammad Ali (1978 - 1979) Retired *** USA

30. Larry Holmes (1980 - 1985) USA

31. Michael Spinks (1985 - 1988) USA

32. Mike Tyson (1988 - 1990) USA

33. James "Buster" Douglas (1990) USA

34. Evander Holyfield (1990 - 1992) ** USA

35. Riddick Bowe (1992 - 1993) USA

36. Evander Holyfield (1993 - 1994) ** USA

37. Michael Moorer (1994) USA

38. George Foreman (1994 - 1997) ** USA

39. Shannon Briggs (1997 - 1998) USA

40. Lennox Lewis (1998 - 2001) ** UK

41. Hasim Rahman (2001) USA

42. Lennox Lewis (2001 - 2004) Retired ** UK

43. Wladimir Klitschko (2009 - 2015) Ukraine

44. Tyson Fury (2015 - Present) UK

 

If Ali DID NOT return when would Holmes be considered the lineal champ? What if Fury was done after the Whyte fight? When does Usyk become the champ and if he does what if Fury comes back after that after another 3 year mental spiral?

And that is the issue with your stricter interpretation of the lineal title.

 

The interpretation isn't strict the correct and accepted one. Who knows when Holmes would have been considered lineal? Possibly when he beat Cooney. It matters not however as we know when he did become lineal.

Fury wasn't done after the Whyte fight.

Real world scenarios will be adjudicated when they actually happen. There have been difficult ones but there's been decisions too. There's lists of who has been lineal, when and why. There's no need for guess work which has only caused confusion.

 

Fury retired after the Whyte fight and his replacement was named while he was gone. At the time that was a real life situation. The main thing seperating lineal titles from alphabet ones is not replacing the active lineal champ. Thats really the whole thing. Retirements have always been a valid reason to crown a new champion and I don't believe in taking past honors away because of outside circumstances.

I do see what you are trying to say I just think it makes more sense to have 2 champs in the interim period then retroactively take ones status away because the old one came back. It seem you want the replacement champ to beat more opponents before they get the lineal title. Cooney was Holmes 12th title defense and 4th since beating Ali. So if Ali stayed retired you think it would have taken an additional 13 fights to be the lineal champ?

 

1. There was no lineal champ for 5 years after Lewis retired. There was also none after Ali retired until he came back in 80.

2. I don't "want" anything. I'm simply stating facts and who has been lineal champ at what points in time. You want to go with your own interpretations and that's absolutely fine but you will be wrong. The majority who care enough to delve into it go by the lists that have been supplied. Anything else is minority opinions.

It is what it is.

 

There was no clear alternative when Lewis(or Vitali) retired while I think Holmes was.

Okay we disagree on this and at the end of the day its semantics.

 

If you accept Tyson Fury as lineal champion after his first comeback, you should have no problem doing so now. There was an almost 3-year period where his inactivity could have led to Joshua being crowned as champion, but neither lay-off from Fury is worse than Dempsey's reign, where he put the belt on ice for a total of 6 years.

 

We can agree to disagree for sure. At the end of the day Holmes is universally accepted on consensus lists as starting in 1980.

 

Holmes is not universally considered lineal because he didn't unify and Ali was retired at the time he came back to face Holmes. When Ali fought Holmes he said he was trying to become a 4 time champion which is an acknowledgement he was no longer champ.

If Lennox Lewis made a comeback and lost to some journeyman today that wouldn't make the guy who beat him lineal.

 

1.Holmes is no journeyman

2.Holmes was in 1980 the best ranked and most prominent heavyweight, having beaten the second most prominent fighter in Ken Norton, holding the most prestigious belt at the time

3.Ali spent very little time in retirement when he returned to face Holmes

4.Ring ratings in 1978,1979 and 1980 put Holmes in first

 

So where did Sullivan get it from?

Was he born with it?

People are far too quick to accept this origin point.

 

Much of that has little bearing on lineal status. Ali did officially retire and at the time he fought Holmes would have lost to plenty of guys. He went a full two years of inactivity prior to facing Holmes.

I'd favor Coetzee to beat Norton and Shavers did in fact beat him easily right after Holmes so beating him is hardly a huge accomplishment on the part of Holmes. And being the best doesn't make you lineal because if it did Sonny Liston would have been lineal years before beating Patterson.

 

I bet you're fun at parties!!!!!