gunboat smith.....

Gunboat was a very good fighter of his day who finds it differcult to stand out due to the splice of weights they had going on in the 10's and 20's - good fighters were hopelessly sandwhiched between greater p4p talents like Greb and Dillon who caused all kinds of problems for the bigger guys.

In John Jarretts book; 'Dynamite Gloves', Langford credited Gunboat Smith as being his ring boogey-man.

 

After he beat Pelkey, Smith was asked if he was going after Johnson for the real title he replied "Johnson will wait,and the longer he waits the better".Johnson did NOT duck Smith,despite what Mendoza tries to insinuate ,in fact Smith didnt want to fight Johnson.

 

This is not correct. Here's the report. Read it Mcvey. Once again, I'll take a newpaper report over the book " In this corner " which I have been told has more errors than a baseball game in the special olympcis.

Bottom line is Gunboat landed one on the chin, and Johnson was in la-la land. Read it, and tell me why we should belive a book written many years after the fact over a daily news paper.

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9F0DEED61F31E733A25751C1A9669D946897D6CF&oref=slogin[/url]

 

Johnson priced himself out of facing Gunboat Smith. Once again, it was Smith who beat Willard and Moran, so why did Johnson give them title shots?

Are you telling me Flynn deserved a title shot over Guboat Smith? Please. And Ross? Please.

So why did Johnson pick them? He felt they were easier fighters to beat. Smith earned a title shot. If I posted a news read with Johsnon own words saying he would fight Smith for $30,000 but didn't, would it mean anything to you?

 

I would allways take the word of the man who actually landed the punch ,Smith himself,and it was a taped interview.before you judge the book ,don't you think you should read it first!You are in the minority ,judging by the comments of the posters who like me have actually read it.At the time Johnson fought Ross,[June 1909 ]Smith hadnt actually had a pro fight so I don't see him as a viable contender! Ross's record ,going into the Johnson fight was 24 fights 11 wins 2 draws,6 losses,and 3 no decs,an improvement on no pro fights I think!.Flynns record going into the title fight was 43 fights 24 wins 14 draws,4 losses ,two of which were in his first two pro fights ,the other two were to Jack Root in 8 rds in1903 and a 15 rds ko defeat to Tommy Burns in a world title fight, respectable figures I feel.To be honest nothing you posted about Jack Johnson would mean **** to me as you are eaten up with hatred towards him and it would be impossible for you to be objective on the subject,as for me he isnt even one of my favourites,I much prefer Dempsey Ali ,Louis Holmes etc,but credit where credits due.I dont care for agenda led posts,and on your hero Jeffries ,and your pet hate Johnson you are never unbiased so the validity and credibility of your arguments go out the window.On any other subject ,with the possible exception of the Klitshkos you are fine.Johnson may have ducked a return match with the more matured Langford,but he did not duck Smith.

 

I read that he said a body blow by Willard was the second hardest punch he ever took, after Smith.

 

Just to sum it up, many boxing books are full or errors. Perhaps I am just more versed on where they are, or in this case you refuse to view reality. " In this corner, by Heller has 40+ fighter telling their side of the story.

If I site Jack Johnson's own words in a boxing magazine when he said Marvin Hart whooped him would you beleive that, or simply disregard the inconvenient truth?

I think it’s the later, but if you doubt me say the word, and I’ll back it up. I know I am correct.

In this corner came out when, in the 1970's. This is at least 50 years after the fact when Johnson and Smith sparred. I’ll take a newspaper report the week it happened. Thank you very much.

I have already shown the board that Jack Johnson had offers for big money to fight McVey, Jeanette and Langford, but balked. He skirted the best THREE fighters out there while champion ( four if you count Smith ) , and by that definition Johnson out drew the color line worse than any other heavyweight champion I can think of. In fact Joe Jeanette says this, and he’s right.

I have a question for you McVey, and please answer it directly. **Do you really think fighters like Moran, Willard, Ross, and Flynn deserved a title shot over Gunboat Smith?** Yes or No.

And get ready for a zinger if you spin this one as I will remind you that Smith beat all the men, better, and more desively than Johnson did, and in most cases before Johnson fought them.

Face it, Johnson gave shots to people who Gunboat Smith beat, and not Smith himself.

 

I kow this isnt directed to me but

IMO Willard maybe deserved it as much as smith maybe a little less the rest Smith Deserved it 10 times more than them

 

There was an article about Smith, by Jim Allan, in April-May 1963 Boxing Illustrated, of which I only have the second part (May issue). Does anybody have April 1963 BI by chance?

 

To sum it up ,you cannot judge something you havent read,so stop patting yourself on the back ,you appear to yourself as some kind of elder statesman on this forum ,an opinion which you share with no one else.Your source for all your posts are old newpapers ,when fights happened in the early part of the 20th century accounts of battles differed widely ,often depending on who got to the writer with a little pay off,I prefer well researched books.Where awriter has examined the available evidence from ALL sides before making his conclusions.Jack Johnson told more lies and outright whoppers than any major pugilist,he said that the referee in the Hart fioght got the corners mixed up in one version! The referee was accussed by some of being overly partial to Hart's aggression in this fight,but what that has to do with Gunboat Smith I fail to see.Gunboat Smith ,at the time Johnson fought Ross had no proffessional exoperience at all[june 1909].If Johnson had fought him and battered him arouind ,no doubt you would be vilifying him for not taking on experienced campaigners like Ross!
Smiths best year was 1913 ,he was busy and had11 fights winning10 with 1 a no dec,he had good wins over Willard Rodel,Flynn ,Ross ,Wells and a debatable[according to boxrec] dec over Langford,his last fight of the year wasin Nove ,he was "on a roll"unfortunately the Champion ,Johnson was not ,he was i exile ,having fled the country inJune of that year after being convicted of breaking the man act ,he jumped bail.Johnson had one defence in 1913 an unsatisfactory draw against Jim Johnson,Jack broke his wrist early in the fight and the fight was given as a draw after 10 rds ,there is some confusion as to whether the fight was a scheduled 10 rounder or for 20 rds,if the latter Johnson should have lost his crown,but it has yet to be determined .The opportunity for Johnson to meet Smith was rater narrow as Smith fought up to Nov all of his fights being in the US.Johnson did not select Willard he was proposed by Barney Curley ,Johnson didnt know who Willard was.Smith would have been a viable opponent for Johnson I feel but he had his share of losses toohe was kod 2 times in 1910,both times by men who never beat a top fighter [other than himself]Joe Willis and Jack Geyer,its true he got his revenge on Willis and beat Geyer once but he also lost to him again.Its also true Smith had a win over Langford though an arguable one ,there was no argument about the return match ,however,Langford bombed him out in 2 rds.Smith also lost To Carpentier on a foul in a fight that saw him on the floor for an 8 count in the 1st rd .In his own words Smith said"I n 1914 I began to slip,after I fought Langford,and Willard I began to slip.I lost that cetain something.I wasnt right".As you like to say ,to sum up ,the logical time for Smith to fight Johnson,would have been in 1913,Johnson was fat ,out of condition and broke he neeeded fights ,he was wrestling nobodies for eating money in Europe.Smith was at his best ,but Smith was in the States and the fugitive Johnson was in Paris.Did Smith deserve a title shot? In 1913 Yes! Did he get one NO? Was it Johnson's fault?
I don't think so.Let us not keep locking horns on Jack Johnson ,you hate him ,and I must admit he was a less than admirable man in many ways,but we are getting nowhere.You beleive Jeffries was a top Champion ,I beleive he is somewhat overated ,especially in skills.You beleive Johnson was overated and ducked just about every body,I beleive he was the finest defensive fighter ever to hold the Heavyweight crown.You will not change your opinion,neither will I. Further debate is futile.

 

Yes, I beleive Johnson ducked or did not make matches with the four best contenders out there while he was champion, possibly five. Unless you can name four fighters who were better than Langford, McVey, Jeanette, and Smith while Johnson was champion, simply yield this point and let us move on.

You might argue Willard over Smith, but Smith beat better fighters in general, and holds the head to head over Willard. Of course, there was also Jack Dillon, and McCarty, though to be fair Johnson did not have enough time to fight those two.

As for Johnson being the best defensive fighter ever to hold a heavyweight crown, where can I see this? Johnson was good at hugging / holding over matched, and much smaller men, but his vaunted defense does not look that impressive on film. A wild Ketchel tags him. A much smaller O'Brien gets the better of him by a shade by using speed and boxing skills (where’s the d? ) according to newspapers. So does journeyman Jim Johnson. And a mere contender in Frank Moran comes very close to a draw with Johnson on a 20 round filmed fight. Moran lands plenty on Johnson .And since this is a Gunboat Smith thread, Johnson’s vanuted defense didn't save him from getting whacked by Gunboat Smith.

The greatest defense of any heavyweight champion you say? The films do not show much of this, and considering Johnson's competition in these films fights, I just cannot buy into that statement. On flim, many fighters look better on defense than Johnson was, and do it vs better competition.

 

I read about him in pete hellers in this corner the guy couldnt string one sentance together without making some racial slur. He was one of the real old school tough guys he said he should of fought at light heavy the most reveling thing about him is that sam langford said the day the tough irish american beat him he was the best he had ever fought.

 

Yes, but his brand of racism was more conversational than reflective of his heart. He claimed to be a friend of Jack Johnson.

It's hard to be a racist when you're engaged in life & death struggles with men of different colors in the ring! You can't help but appreciate the "other" because what the fighter experiences is unique and stressful enough to force the realization that when any boxer bleeds, you do too.

In a way, the "other" is you.

 

Even Gunboat himself in "in this corner" indicated he was no match for Johnson.

 

The reality is this:

Gunboat Smith and Jess Willard were both offered a shot at Jack Johnsons title which they had slim hope of winning.

Smith wanted to wait for Johnson to get older and declined (until Johnson was older).

Willard took the fight with both hands, and found a way to win, taking horendous punishment.

Result-

Jess Willard lineal champion.