Guys school me on James J. Jeffries...

Just a quick update. Jeffries was well ahead of Fitz in the first fight. In the second fight Fitz, who according to some reports, doctored his gloves and had the lead until he was Ko'd in the 8th round.

Jeffries beat a few black name fighters before winning the title ( Griffin, Jackson, and Armstrong ), and as champion floored Griffin multiple times in a 4 round match. So to say Jeffries would not face black fighters as champion under certain conditions is not true. He once offered Jack Johnson a bar fight in the early 1900’s. Johnson declined. While Johnson was a worthy contender, the window of being viewed as the #1 contender ended in 1905 when he lost to Hart. Jeffries said he would fight Hart if there was public interest. There wasn’t.

Up until 1960's, Jeffries was seen as a top 3 ATG. However his current standing is much lower for the following reasons: 1 ) Those who saw him are long dead. 2 ) There is a lack of film of him in almost all of his key fights, and the film that survives is not in good shape. If you’re looking for an older timer with modern day size, strength, stamina, hitting power, durability, and athleticism you won’t find many until Sonny Liston in the late 1950’s.

 

GO FOR IT B .E .YOU THE MAN!:good:happy

 

Bump

Got lost at the bottom of the last page.

 

Tony Triem says:

Bob Fitzsimmons ....... "was at a weight disadvantage of 30lbs. to 54lbs. to every opponent he fought. No other fighter of any era can make those claims."

Every opponent? nut:nut

 

Hyperbole aside, Fitzsimmons is far from being a bad pick as p4p No 1 of all time.

 

Jeffries carefully examimed Fitz's hands in the ring prior to the start,and found nothing amiss, ,it is well documented.

Round by round reports say Jeffries was in imminent danger of being stopped due to the punishment he had absorbed.

They also say Jeffries only won because of his significant advantages in weight 47lbs , age 27 years against 39years, and the fact that Fitzsimmons had been retired for 2 years.

This can be confirmed by the ringside reports, and I've posted them several times.
Jeffries was indeed willing to fight black fighters .

What he was not prepared to do was risk his title against them ,and he many times stated that in print.

Before the Johnson/Hart fight , Jeffries said he was prepared to face Hart, but if Johnson won he would not fight him.

It was published in many newspapers at the time.

Those who saw Johnson, Dempsey, and Louis fight are dead , but their standing remains high.

When Jeffries was rated ,by the contemporary boxing writers of his day,there had only been a handful of heavyweight champions, as they have increased his standing has correspondingly declined.


Jim Jeffries was tough as old boots , he traded on durability, fighting men who for the most part were not only significantly outweighed, and outsized , but were conceding age, and activity via recent ring work to him.
He was fortunate that the former greats he bested were past their prime and coming out of extended retirement.

One wonders how he would manage against class heavyweights his own size, or those of today who are markedly bigger?
Jeffries would be a smaller heavyweight than Holyfield, if he was in the ring today, not a good portent for a man who relied on taking his foes best , then wearing down his opponents late.

How many modern referees would permit Jeffries to absorb the punishment he did in some of his major fights?

He was a great for his time, but perhaps fortunate he was of that time, and not of the 40's onwards. How would he have withstood a precision puncher like Louis?
A fast starting , quick, two handed banger like Dempsey?
A scientific, sharp shooting , mobile boxer in his prime like Tunney?
Jeffries said he found the 5'8" , crude and easy to hit Sharkey ,hard to master because he was always on him.
How would he have coped with the incessant onslaught of Marciano, or Frazier ?

Jeffries never beat a man his own size ,who had terrific power and a telegraph pole of a left jab like Liston.
A dazzling speedster like Ali who would be not only light years faster , but appreciably bigger with advantages in reach?
Ditto Holmes?
Foreman would trade with him ,that would be a unique experience for Jeffries , a bigger man with a power advantage over him who also had a ram rod jab.
Lewis and Bowe ? They beat him imo.
Tyson would be a good fight but the speed of Tyson's combos would bewilder the Californina,imo

No, I think Jeffries was a great of his time, and lucky to be born when he was.

 

Just a quick update. Jeffries was well ahead of Fitz in the first fight. In the second fight Fitz, who according to some reports, doctored his gloves and had the lead until he was Ko'd in the 8th round.

Jeffries beat a few black name fighters before winning the title ( Griffin, Jackson, and Armstrong ), and as champion floored Griffin multiple times in a 4 round match. So to say Jeffries would not face black fighters as champion under certain conditions is not true. He once offered Jack Johnson a bar fight in the early 1900’s. Johnson declined. While Johnson was a worthy contender, the window of being viewed as the #1 contender ended in 1905 when he lost to Hart. Jeffries said he would fight Hart if there was public interest. There wasn’t.

Up until 1960's, Jeffries was seen as a top 3 ATG. However his current standing is much lower for the following reasons: 1 ) Those who saw him are long dead. 2 ) There is a lack of film of him in almost all of his key fights, and the film that survives is not in good shape. If you’re looking for an older timer with modern day size, strength, stamina, hitting power, durability, and athleticism you won’t find many until Sonny Liston in the late 1950’s.

Then why did Fitz toss his gloves into the crowd after Jeffries wanted to see them? That is documented too.

Cut, yes. Down from punches no.

What fighters say in print, and what they do when money is up often contradict each other. Besides, Johnson could only be viewed as the #1 contender for a short period of time. Say 2 years from 1903-1905, and he blew it in the Hart fight. You once agreed Johnson would lose to Jeffries from 1899-1905. Its a moot point. Had Johnson beaten Hart cleanly and a large purse was up, then you would have a better argument. But he did not.

If a Reno level purse was offered, who knows. He could have changed his mind. Every fighter has their price.

Yes, because there is film on them. Video is a powerful medium. Up until 1960 Jeffries often rated higher than Louis, and even with Johnson and Dempsey. In his time, both Dempsey and Johnson viewed him as the #1 all time great. These are the facts.

If Jeffries was around today, he would also be bigger. Jeffries had an easier time with larger / slower guys ( Rhulin, Kennedy and Munroe ). Big guys who are not in top shape often lack stamina. You could argue he would do better vs 220-230 than he did with 185-200.

Utter crap. Compare the tale of the tape between the two. Jeffries is bigger in almost every area. If Liston at 210 was standing next to say Povetkin at 225, Liston would look bigger. Weight does not always mean bigger, it can mean fatter.

How many fighters today would agree to a 25 round fight with light gloves made out of horse hair? In a 12 round match, Jeffries only had cuts issues once where a modern ref might call a TKO cuts loss. The gloves today do not produce cuts like the older / lighter gloves did. Also the fighters did not use mouth pieces, or have enswell for bumps, or paste for cuts.

It would have been a great fight. Louis wasn't that hard to hit and was Ko'd or dropped by guys were were not in Jeffries class.

There was only one Liston. The same can be said for the majority of histories heavies.

Maybe Ali takes a decision, but he wasn't much faster than Corbett, and was often caught with the left hook, which was Jeff's best punch.

 

The problem is Jeffries not only refused to defend against Johnson , he refused a $20,000 offer to fight McVey.

Jeffries flat out would not defend his title against a man of colour, he was not the first to take this stance , neither was he the last. Sullivan , Corbett and Fitz wanted no part of Jackson when they were Champs. Jeffries would not entertain Johnson, Martin, Childs ,or McVey, of the three only Johnson had a realistic chance whilst jeffries was the Champion,imo, That is not the point, all of them were more worthy challengers than Finnegan and Munroe.

I'm not disparaging Jeffries in particular,as I said he followed the line of least resistance, Willard and Dempsey made similar statements.


I've never suggested that Fitz was near to dropping Jeffries , indeed the fact that Jeffries withstood his punches is what convinced me that Jeffries had a monster chin.
Fitz nearly killed Ruhlin , wrecked Sharkey twice , yet he could not drop Jeffries.

I don't buy into this hypothetical, if so and so was around today they would be 3 inches taller ,and 30lbs heavier because of the advanced nutrition and training.

I judge them from what they actually were, anything else is supposition.

Munroe and Kennedy would not make sparrring partners today.
Ruhlin had been half killed by Fitzsimmons ,he was not the same man who had held Jeffries to a 20rds draw.

Jeffries today would be a small heavyweight, that is unarguable.

There is film of Jeffries too.

Jeffries had his nose broken three times, Choynski lacerated his eyes and cut his mouth open. Fitz tunred his face into raw hamburger.

Jeffries retired with a cauliflower ear, a flat nose and scar tissue over both eyes.

That's from 23 fights! Johnson was unmarked when he retired after 77.

Don't blame it on the gloves ,how many reports are there of Fitzsimmons face being a mask of blood? Sullivan's? Choynski's?

Louis was kod twice, both times by world champions ,whether Schmeling and Marciano were not in Jeffries class is an extremely contentious point ,imo.

Johnson named Fitzsimmons as the best of those before him.

I have not stated that Jeffries would lose to all those I named, I've just pondered the question how he would fare against them?

I believe I have answered your points .

 

Boxed Ears wins the thread

 

Who ever made it ,its bull****. Jeffries was a heavy puncher, but not in Fitz's class.

 

Foregone conclusion.