H2H Heavyweight King: Who comes out on top?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ironchamp, Jan 27, 2012.


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  1. Conn

    Conn Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Cleveland Williams looks good, but maybe he was one of those guys who could dish it out but not take it.
    If we put Liston in with a big, reasonably talented 215 pound+ guys who can punch like Williams but we know could also take some punishment (and there have been lots of heavyweights like that) .... do we know how Liston would cope ?

    There's no doubt that Liston takes it pretty well, but if Williams didn't crumble in 2 or 3 rounds, and Liston was extended in that sort of fight for 8 or 9 rounds, how would he do ? Did he ever have a fight like that ?
    What was the DeJohn fight like?




    He might have thrown both Clay/Ali fights. Or one or the other.
    Or maybe he simply quit twice.

    On one hand, I think he ought to have left-hooked the young novice Clay into oblivion. On the other, I have to consider that Clay was an improving fighter, a maturing big HW, and on his way to being a great fighter .... so i wonder whether Liston could ever have beat him or done much better than he did.
    Either way, there's nothing in those fights that can help Liston's reputation.
     
    Conn, Jan 31, 2012
    Conn, Jan 31, 2012
    #136
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't think that this fighter was born. A fighter that could take Liston's best for 8 or 9 rounds? Nah.
     
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    #137
  3. Conn

    Conn Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Well, I mean someone big and good who can stand up to him and give as good as he gets for 8 or 9 rounds, someone who could take more punishment than Williams.

    No one who needs to be particularly great. Just big and tough, strong, and powerful or good in some way. A Bowe, a Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, Abe Simon, Ray Mercer .....

    I'm not convinced Cleveland williams had a large degree of 'ruggedness'
     
    Conn, Jan 31, 2012
    Conn, Jan 31, 2012
    #138
  4. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Prime vs. prime and H2H is the only way I rank. With that said, Ali remains my #1 fighter on this list.
     
    Hookie, Jan 31, 2012
    Hookie, Jan 31, 2012
    #139
  5. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    yeah, and if my Aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle... too many ifs
     
    Hookie, Jan 31, 2012
    Hookie, Jan 31, 2012
    #140
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Watch the Clark fight. He was plenty strong and his chin is concrete. He gave old Liston an unpleasant couple of rounds. He also had to tough it out against Summerlin who you can see boxing handily elsewhere.
     
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    #141
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol: this whole thread is "ifs".
     
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    #142
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Way, way to many ifs. I prefer to rank fighters on what they did rather than what they do in the make-believe inside my head.
     
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    #143
  9. Conn

    Conn Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Good call on the Clark fight. Clark was big and tough, and decent.
     
    Conn, Jan 31, 2012
    Conn, Jan 31, 2012
    #144
  10. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Really? If that's true than why do I see Dempsey get ranked above Tunney? Schmeling above Baer? Louis over Marciano? Louis over Charles? I've even seen Tyson ranked above Holyfield.

    Yes, I understand that "ifs" are what this is all about... but I like to think that most of us are making educated decisions based in reality.

    To each their own though, I was just having fun.

    Personally I like to take a fighter at the best he ever was and match him up vs. another fighter at the best he ever was... nothing more, nothing less... none of that better management, different trainer, prettier boxing trunks lol, etc.

    This is why I rank Holyfield above Bowe, Tyson, and Lewis. I honestly think that at his very best he was better than these 3 at their very best despite what happened when they actually fought. He went 3-3-1 (1) vs. them.
     
    Hookie, Jan 31, 2012
    Hookie, Jan 31, 2012
    #145
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    OK, so Liston has to fight the tournament with management who might at any moment tell him he has to ditch :lol: Good luck quantifying that, but it's your rules I suppose.
     
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    #146
  12. ironchamp

    ironchamp Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You make a very valid point here.

    Lewis no matter how much I may favor him over fighters like Floyd Patterson, Max Schmeling or Sam Langford can easily get upset over the course of the tournament by a Max Baer or Rocky Marciano, who are essentially fighters I expect Lewis to beat.

    I think Evander Holyfield may actually perform a lot better than I initially projected. His perseverance and drive and ability to adapt suggests that he may have more success than fighters should rank ahead of him on a H2H basis.

    Vitaly Klitschko is a dark horse here as well. He certainly has the tools to make a very compelling case.
     
    ironchamp, Jan 31, 2012
    ironchamp, Jan 31, 2012
    #147
  13. ironchamp

    ironchamp Boxing Addict Full Member

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    So you think he'd win the tournament?

    Fighting 24 Great Heavyweight Elites consecutively is bound to take a toll and I don't think any fighter will walk out of this tournament without a loss; so with that said who do you think beats Ali?
     
    ironchamp, Jan 31, 2012
    ironchamp, Jan 31, 2012
    #148
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It depends on the schedule and if you're allowing him to have it "Taken out of him" in each fight, and if you're allowing hypothetical perfect prep.

    Nobody can answer the questions you are asking. If Ali has to fight Marciano in fight one, then Frazier in fight three, he could lose fight three to just about anyone. If he gets Corbett and Tunney in 1 and 2 he should be fresh (ish) for 3. If he gets Frazier after Frazier has had ten hard fights, he will thrash him. If he gets him third, he's in a 50-50 type fight. There's far to much going on to give any real answer, which is why people answer with who they think is most skilled, generally.
     
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    McGrain, Jan 31, 2012
    #149
  15. SenorRamirez

    SenorRamirez Active Member Full Member

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    Tyson, Liston Lewis and Holyfield
     
    SenorRamirez, Jan 31, 2012
    SenorRamirez, Jan 31, 2012
    #150
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