H2H Heavyweight King: Who comes out on top?

Holyfield was consistently inconsistent against top opposition, how on earth is he anywhere near the KING of h2h?

 

This is exactly what I see. Maybe Holyfield can be consistent enough to pull off 3 wins to every 1 loss. And what about the wear and tear that McGrain suggests? Maybe someone like Tyson can blow away certain opponents that will keep him fresher in subsequent fights. Interesting propositions. I prefer the battles to be tested on a best for best, head to head basis, and I don't think Ironchamp's tournament is set that way. But nobody is coming out of this unscathed.

 

Sure he could cope. He fought with a busted jaw and his opponent said he never even knew it. " You hit him with your Sunday punch but he don't grunt, groan, flinch or blink. He don't do nuthin', he just keeps coming on."

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Clark, incidentally, was ranked in the top 10 by Ring when Liston got him. If I recall, Liston won every round.

He dominated him with his jab and dropped him a few times with body shots before finishing him with an uppercut I think. When he stopped Valdes in the third, he had some adversity -his right eye was reportedly closed tightly after a thumb in the first.

Sure, Liston will have problems with other elites. Who wouldn't. I just think that he was as near a complete HW as there is. His skill level is up there with Holyfield at least. He's got the strength of Foreman. An excellent chin, crushing power, a well-schooled defense. His reach was as long as Lennox's and he did, in fact, overcome adversity.

His only physical liability is speed, though he was faster in his prime than he was in '64. His real liability was who was fleecing him and pulling his strings. Liston was an owned man and he had to do what he was told.

I really, really doubt that.

If Liston trained as hard as he should have, I still see major stylistic problems for him against Clay/Ali. Ali was a special, special fighter. It's a shame that the only time Liston really got himself ready to fight Ali was the first date of the rematch which was set for my city -Boston. It was cancelled after Ali was rushed to the hospital for appendicitis.

 

Dundee comes off as a genuinely pompous ***** to me, but then again I may be more inclined to dislike him as outside of Tyson, Liston and Duran are my two favorite fighters of all-time. I get a kick out of it whenever you take digs at him and expose his spun up, rebundled tales. Half the time, I don't know how he even gets away with it. For instance, all you'd have to do is watch the original broadcast of Duran-Leonard I to find out Dundee not only considered Leonard the puncher, but that Duran would be stopped inside of four rounds. :roll:

Aside from the regurgitated photo-cover, that was an initial turn-off as well although I wasn't sure if it was meant to be literal or a play on Ali's pre-fight psychology and the general, intolerant public view of Liston during the times.

 

Good points. Yes, Liston was proven.

Both fights are suspect, I think. In some way or another.
I don't rule out the possibility that Liston had lost a chunk of his fighting heart on becoming champion, he just couldn't be bothered with it all as much as he had been on the way up.

I see the stylistic problems for Liston against Clay/Ali too. With Clay's mobility and speed.
But I also see where Liston should have been a serious stylistic threat to Clay/Ali. A long reach, a heavy accurate jab and one of the best left hooks of all-time, packaged into a physically imposing and strong skillful fighter .... these are excellent tools to go up against Ali with.

 

On a league table criteria,I'm confident that Muhammad Ali would top it. He may not have come out of it unbeaten,as any great fighter can be beaten by another on a given night,but he'd incur less losses than all the others,imo.

 

The left hook is a good point, but Ali was too much of a stylist for Liston who tended to lumber. Liston did better with orthodox guys -guys who followed the rules. Ali would have read Liston all night, countering him, turning him and forcing him to reset. The fact that Ali was 6'3, physically strong himself, and ridiculously fast neutralizes the rest of Liston's assets. Even his jab.

 

In these type of scenarios,I always take it that each man will be 'rejuvenated' after each fight. Otherwise the 'take two to land one' types,especially,would be burnt out after two or three bouts !

 

Ali is beautifully against Williams, unfortunately it's about the equivalent of the Miami Heat playing the Bobcats today. It's evident Williams was done and completely over-matched. It's pretty well acknowledged that Williams was shot both figuratively and literally, at least around these quarters.

They were great fights. They were also rather short fights. Explosive punching from both men. I believe Williams rung Liston's bells, and Liston talked rather well of his power. Afterwards, Liston said that Williams hit just as hard as himself if not harder. The only problem was he couldn't take it as well.

Inferior in what sense? Inferior to most eras or inferior to Liston? Obviously Liston was a fighter who looked rather exceptional, an absolute force against good fighters because of his power, reach, durability, and solid skills. Most great punchers look more exceptional than boxer types. This is part of the reason why we praise strong powerful fighters outlandishly... to the point of being terrifying, invincible monsters who we can't even envision losing until after they actually lose. Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Jeff Lacy? Yeah, the latter is an example of how hype can get the best of us when it comes to punchers, obviously Lacy was never seen as invincible like the other three choices, though.

Now, Liiston beat a fair era. But my point is, like Tyson and Foreman they would look more exceptional against such opposition than Holmes and Ali would, but that's not to say they're superior than Ali or Holmes, obviously. It takes a longer fight, where the big muscle puncher is a little more zapped for oxygen and getting punched in the face more than ever, and finding it incredible tough to land on the other guy to look more ordinary.

Cus held the same reasoning with why Ali needed to bop Foreman in the mouth in the opening minutes of their fight in Zaire. It's not that George is a bully, far from it. It's that these powerful forces are so used to controlling and dominating that you need to show them who boss is. Obviously I think Liston fits the "Bully" stigma or stereotype more so than Foreman. Again, I haven't seen him get bopped a lot for an extended match and seem vulnerable, and then win. I don't doubt Liston's skills to win such a tournament. Again, let's not say he's weak or a bully... let's just say he's weak relatively to the ATG HWs around them that he has to fight.

Did I do that, Stonehands? I guess this is an error of communication on my part. Did I call Ali a hero, either? You obviously feel strongly about this, and I'm not here to try and reinforce media propaganda to better validate my point. It's not black and white, there are degrees to it. I don't doubt Riddick Bowe doesn't have the skills to win such a tournament. I doubt his focus and ability to stay dedicated and strong. Same goes for Liston.

Well, it's not a myth but a little out of context, admittedly. There was a doc I watched on Liston. I believe it was Dave Anderson who asked Liston after the second fight if he stayed down or quit or why didn't he get up. And Liston said something to the effect of man that guy was crazy and he didn't want any part of that. I know Pacheco and Dundee said this, and I know their credibility deserves to be in questioned. I'm not referencing them, though.

I think I'll need to see more evidence to accept that Liston didn't quit twice. I've heard tons and tons of stories of what happened, particularly with the second fight of what happened and why. I don't dismiss this possibility, though. For the flip side, it's also possible Liston blinded Ali.

Yeah, in the first fight I read the shoulder injury was legit (After thinking it wasn't), although not a great reason to quit on your stool. Apparently there was an FBI investigation because enough people were incredulous regarding the injury, especially since news of a fix was already in.

As far Tyson, well he was off the rails at that point. Going into the fight he looked a far cry from the man biting Lewis leg. He was actually tamed down from meds looking more like a zombie.

What's the best book on Liston in your opinion, Stonehands?

 

Exactly the point.

I think Foreman could be the man to win a slug-fest and take Liston's stuff for 8 or 9 rounds.

 

Liston had a stylistic weakness. He couldn't cut off the ring. Some Liston fans believe this was to his advantage. He was a bit of a plodder, and not in an economic sense like Louis who could cut down Carnera with his feet. Liston could, though, fight well of the backfoot, though. I think fights with Ali, Walcott, Tunney, and Holmes in his absolute peak would be interesting to see from this standpoint to better evaluate this weakness.

 

I think so too, Pete.

 

Holyfield wasn't as inconsistent as people make out.

OK, ignore everything after the Lennox Lewis fights.
The only men who beat him were Riddick Bowe, Michael Moorer and Lennox Lewis.

For a start, most of the guys on the list never fought a Bowe or a Lewis. Let's be honest, if those two had been around in 1983, I'm guessing Larry Holmes would have ducked them.
Holyfield fought Bowe 3 times, fought Lewis twice. Most of those matches when he was beyond his best.
Dempsey wouldn't have fought Bowe or Lewis either.
Marciano never fought a Bowe or a Lewis.
Jeffries and Johnson surely didn't.
Liston never beat anyone as good as a Bowe or Lewis.
I don't think Joe Louis did either.

^ I think a lot of those guys would seem "inconsistent" if they fought Bowe and Lewis a total of 5 times !

The Michael Moorer defeat, Evander was clearly injured or sick or just plain getting old. Yes, that's a mark against him in the "consistency" stakes but even that Holyfield would probably scrape past a few men of the list. In fact, the Moorer defeat was incredibly close and disputed by many.

 

Great thread - I haven't had chance to read it all yet.

I think you have to factor in size. In reality Marciano was not much bigger than B-Hop, he couldn't have lived with the Super Heavies of today.

I'll get shot down in flames for this, but the Bowe that beat Holyfiled in 92 and the Douglas that beat Tyson, would have avery good shot against any heavyweight in history in a H2H IMO.