H2H Heavyweight King: Who comes out on top?

That's more than fair, i think prime Bowe is the closest thing we ever got to seeing Ike Ibeabuchi in his prime but with not as good a chin.

 

I'm probably the only one here but i think Max Baer is getting sold very short. He's got most likely the best chin on that list along with Ali, big power in both hands especially the right, 20 round stamina, not prone to being cut, a very unorthodox style, proven that he can take out bigger, more skill opponents etc.
I think he'd cause more than a few upsets...

 

I think you might be right. :good

This is what I wrote earlier ....

A guy like Max Baer ... maybe he has holes all over his style and can lose to nobodies, but maybe he can do a ton of damage too. Some of those "greats", maybe he knocks them into the fifth row !

 

Nice. :rofl

I agree with your points on Holy too. :good

 

I agree with you, but Liston was far more skilled than Foreman, and stronger than Tyson. I don't see Holyfield moving him back at will, for example. You agree that he was a destroyer against good fighters. That tells me that he could at least beat great fighters, even if he hadn't due to circumstances and the timing of his career.

Taking an opponent out of his comfort zone, or disrupting his self-perception is good strategy regardless of what kind of fighter he is. I just don't buy that a prime, hungry, well-trained Liston is gonna weaken between the ears against anyone. Except Joe Louis, who he idolized.

You didn't. Sometimes I respond not so much to what is said as to what I think is suggested by a particular position. Sometimes I'm off.

Your statements about Bowe forces me to reconsider something though. I like taking a fighter at his best for a H2H. I think it makes sense because it removes the opportunity for prejudices. Holyfield for instance. I'd consider him in this tournament without that "ventricle problem" in his heart that sapped his energy against Moorer and others. 1975 Ali had a lot of heart, but he isn't beating most of the opposition here. 1967 Ali sure as hell is. Dempsey's prime was very brief in my estimation.

Bowe's chances really hinge on one fight. That first fight with Holyfield was his Douglas in Tokyo. It would be a stretch to assume that Bowe could get himself to that kind of condition over a period of time. One fight ain't a period of time. He was a lazy fighter. That'd be a problem in this tournament.

But see, Liston did. He was a monster from 1958-1961. And that for me is the difference. Yes, he had two fights that destroyed the perception of him for all time. But is it fair to assume that he is liable to quit every time things get rough? Too me, that's a prejudice. It's like some mental misfit saying that all you gotta do to beat Duran is stick your tongue out at him.

I remember him saying that Ali was standing over him acting crazy and that was why he didn't get up. But that doesn't hold up on the film. Mark Kram said that years later Liston told him, “That guy [Ali] was crazy. I didn’t want anything to do with him. And the Muslims were coming up. Who needed that? So I went down. I wasn’t hit.”

I think it very likely that he blinded Ali.

The following facts are tough to ignore regarding Ali-Liston II.

1. Liston had a great chin and was never KOd in one round, or at all until Martin got him in '69.

2. Ali never knocked out anyone in a round since 1961 against a guy who was 1-2. He never did again. "KO 1" against Liston is suspicious on its face.

3. Liston was owned by Carbo and Palermo. Their whole business in boxing was to fix fights, bet on the winner, and clean-up. They'd been doing it for years and years.

4. Liston was installed as a 9-5 favorite.

The shoulder injury was real, but I think he wanted out because he knew that the kid might stop him if he didn't. And he had an excuse that was ...fair.

Well, most boxing books these days seem to be heavy with chronicles. Chronicles have their purpose but I don't find them necessarily entertaining. I liked Tosche's "The Devil and Sonny Liston."

How about you?

What's your favorite boxing book?

 

:deal I Agree mate

 

Holyfield gets criticized rather heavily for his inconsistencies (Rightly so to some extent). They happened, and in part help make his wins look all the more heroic. I think part of his losses were a little bit freakish and bad luck. At the end of the day he's got the skills, well-roundedness, and fighting heart to do well I think. His doesn't really have a style weakness like many of the other HWs do.

 

Sure, but even if Foreman and Tyson were bullies you didn't see them wilt away the Liston had (Tyson did go the crazy route). I'm not sure Holyfield would have been able to do that to a younger, primed Tyson anyway, though. That Tyson's stamina was basically half the engine he was, and that allowed for Holyfield to be able to control him to begin with. Holyfield could just try to out-box Liston, anyway. It's a different style matchup, regardless. Yeah, Liston could definitely beat great fighters, I'm not that far of a contrarian.

I think a prime Ali always would've handled him and highlighted his weaknesses (Mental or physical). Ploddy footwork, following straight in & not cutting off the ring, reaching, getting frustrated, etc.

It's all good.

Yeah. If you could clone 25 of these HWs and have them face off (Each clone once) that would be different than say one peak version fighting 6 years, 25 fights straight. But Iron said it was the latter, which makes me rather prejudice against Bowe & Liston's chances. I think physical issues are more ignorable than mental questions because I just don't think of Holyfield with ventricle and hepatitis problems. Maybe I should, I assume that not to occur in this tournament just like if a fighter was ill they wouldn't fight it would get postponed.

Agreed.

That's true. Bowe's problems stemmed mentally from focus, which affected him physical. I question Liston's mental strength, but it's the physical issues that could've worsened his mentality for the Ali fights. Then again, I don't think a fighter that's not in shape or doesn't train just "Take the easy way out" not once, but twice. Holyfield like gassed against Bowe III and Moorer but he didn't just pack it in. This counts for something.

It might've been Kram, that quote sounds eerily familiar. I'm not saying Ali acted crazy made him not get up, but that he already thought of him as off and just stayed down. Obviously we'll never know for sure.

Yeah, I think the knockdown was legitimate. Liston seemed to consciously make his choice to stay down and act hurt. Whether he quit or if it was fix is another question altogether. It hurts his credibility that he had in the 1st fight, unfortunately.

This sounds about right.

I enjoyed Liebling's The Sweet Science. That was definitely heavy in chronicles. Rocky Marciano: The Rock Of His Times was a well-written, very level-headed book. When I was in middle school, though, the first boxing book I picked up and read was at my school library. A 130 or so page biography titled "The Brown Bomber." Not a bad reading introduction to the sport.

 

I think we're pretty much in the same corner about Liston, Pete. I think he's a bit stronger between the ears than you do, even if I'd concede that he didn't have the will of Marciano, Ali, or Holyfield. Not many do. However, the first Clay fight makes my opinion a little more iffy. Not the rematch though. I don't believe he had a choice in that one. And I can't see the knockdown as legit either. I see that as a compromise. Possible, but unlikely. Cleveland couldn't put him down, neither could DeJohn. Ali? He wasn't even in position to land a good one.

Liebling! Liebling is my literary idol. I LOVE The Sweet Science. I don't see chronicles in it though, maybe we're defining it differently. He has too much context -beautiful context- and character development to ever by reduced to "and then Marciano KO'd Walcott and took the heavyweight title. In the rematch, he KO'd Walcott in one round. He also faced Ezzard Charles....." -you know, that blah blah, boxrec stuff that makes your eyes cross.

I'd crown "Ahab and Nemesis" as the single greatest boxing essay ever written. It's even better than "Out of the Past" though not by much. wink.

 

I wouldn`t pick anyone over Ali tbh, that doesn`t mean I think he would go 24-0 vs these guys, there is bound to be a slip up somewhere no doubt but if I look at every fight one at a time then I would pick Ali over all those guys prime for prime.

There is a reason he is ranked the greatest HW.

 

Yeah, I think we're defining it differently. That's why The Sweet Science was such a great read. It wasn't dry description, but relevant and intriguing insight and development. A good mix of testimony, anecdote, and opinion. Plus he's just a hell of a writer, really puts you in the times.

Oh yeah, his descriptions on Moore-Marciano was probably my favorite bit of the book. A top-notch way to finish the book. His ability to put in perspective the times of fighters was unique. To say times had improved, and that Marciano proved more than Dempsey had to show great perspective at that time period. I don't remember Out of The Past if that was in the book. What was that essay about? And if it's not in the book, where can I find it and read it?

 

I bet this competition would go many places nobody expects.

But I think Ali would be the man who stood above the rest. He's a stylistic nightmare for most of the other super greats, and those that might be bad matches for him would lose some fights to others.