H2H Heavyweight King: Who comes out on top?

I think you're missing his point. He is saying the best (and indeed most consistent) version of Liston is the one pre title. He cut a swathe thru some of the best contenders. Pre Ali/Patterson he had loads of consistency.

 

And it's unreasonable to expect him to do so against such top-notch opposition. Liston is an ATG and was a great fighter, but he was not a winner in the ways the other champs with longevity were as far as I'm concerned. And for those who think it's the same as with Tyson, it's not. There is a difference between not winning and folding.

Not to exclude Liston, same goes for Bowe & Max Baer. Immensely talented, even with glimpses of putting it all together so wonderfully (At least with the former), but never really focused long enough to sustain and deal with obstacles and making the most of their talent or their ability.

 

Says you. Only a cut stoppage and a torn shoulder prevented him from winning fights vs. top level guys in matches where he was ahead on the cards. Anyone here could lose the same way.


Underrated in the skills department, Vitail has never lost more than two consensus rounds on all three judges cards in any of his fights. Vitali can box, and is pretty hard to catch. Some of history's smaller heavies would be literally in over the head and look like welter weights next to him.

I would say Vitali is a top 10 h2h heavyweight, and Wlad is top 15.

 

Yes says me.

That's not what stopped him winning at all. He was up by one point on my card against byrd at the time he quit. There's no way he'd have taken the last 3 rounds as he himself concluded.

I had him 2 points up against lewis at the time lewis beat him so bad the ref had to stop it. With 6 rounds left i'd be fairly sure lewis would take the majority.

Wlad is much superior to vitali as their respective careers show.

Vitali has never looked as good as wlad did in the rematch against byrd.

As for what you say about consensus rounds, I had him losing 4 to rapid fire.

 

The consensus rounds are the judges score cards....all of them, not mine. No man has won more than 2 consensus rounds vs Vitlai, nor has he ever been behind on the score cards past round three.

I had him losing 2 rounds to Byrd and one round even. Vitlai took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice with Byrd being the sub for Ruddock. Vitlai was complaining about his arm as early as round three in the fight. So essentially he was beating Byrd ( who was in his prime for this fight ) with one good working arm. Byrd did not want a re-match. He was lucky, and could not believe it when he won.

As for Lewis, if you think he would have won the majority decision, I suggest you take a look at the cards. Lewis was down 4-2 on all three cards. This means to achieve a draw he needs to win 4 of the last 6 rounds on two cards, and to win a majority decision he would need to take 5 of the last 6 on two cards. I doubt that would have happened. At the close of the match, Lewis crashed down hard on his stool. He was tired. Even a biased reporter like Max Kellerman said he never saw Lewis so tired in his career. We all saw how much energy Vitlai had left when he learned the fight was stopped. Lewis said he would offer a re-match. The boxing community was buzzing about it. 15-18 million was there for Lewis, who talked and watched as VItlai beat Johnson ( Someone Lewis was trying to fight in Canada ), and Sanders. Eventually Lewis was ordered to take the match or be stripped of his title. Actions speak louder than words here, and Lewis retired knowing he would likely lose the re-match.

 

prime. 1973-1974.

 

I only treat judges scores as interim until the point i've seen a fight myself.

A man as big as vitali will no doubt be complaining about his shoulder when he's swung wildly and missed 200 times.

Good point, byrd took it on 2 weeks notice as a late sub away to the defending belt holder.

Byrd wanted the rematch, no need to lie about that.

Regarding lewis, I said the majority of the remaining rounds. Vitali had no face left and lewis was landing serious leather. Close points win or late stoppage was most likely.

I've no doubt vitali wins a rematch: he was in his prime and lewis was slipping further away from his. Had they fought in 04 vitali would have punished lewis imo.

 

Lennox Lewis imo

 

In this 7 year tournament format, I think Lennox Lewis performs best.

Using the ironchamp criteria:

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: Win

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: Loss

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: 50-50 fight


Record: 20-0-4*

*Assuming all Ali, Tyson, Holy & Bowe are "Peak" when Lewis meets them. In reality, given the 7 year length of the tourament, Lewis is far more likely to be much closer to "Peak" when the fights occur, especially against Tyson & Bowe, where Lewis will often be better than 50-50 against them.

 

At the risk of making a tool of myself i will semi speak for Master Toledo again. Hopefully he will agree even a little bit.

Liston by the time he got to Ali was at a similar age and career stage to that of which Tyson was when the cracks appeared.

Liston actually did his Tysonesque work pre title, where as Tyson cleaned the division out AFTER winning the title.

Springs?

 

1. Lewis
2. Wladimir
3. Vitali
4. Holmes
5. Holyfield
6. Tyson


7. Ali
8. Foreman
9. Louis
10. Liston

i don't give a **** about the rest because 95 % of them are not even heavyweights.
jack demspey wouldn't even be a fringe contender today, same goes for everyone before louis and after louis till liston. marcioano would get whopped by hopkins, dawson and other light heavyweights.

watch some fights of ali, against foreman, frazier and norton, in no freaking world he beats holmes, tyson, holyfield, lewis, vitali and wladimir. Thats just the reality, not some nostalgic **** hopes

Lewis beats everyone besides wlad.
wlad loses to tyson
vitali loses to lewis and holmes
holyfield loses to lewis, both KBros and holmes
Ali beats liston, louis and foreman (not in every fight against foreman, wins 6 out of 10)

 

Vitali was toast, here's Steward's inside comments

 

1. 67 ali
2. 38 louis
3. 87 tyson
4. 96 lewis
5. 80 holmes
6. 58 liston