H2H Heavyweight King: Who comes out on top?

I think that Louis and Ali would pick up the least losses for all the same reasons that they enjoyed the greatest logevity, and built the deepest resumes.

Of the two of them, I would hazard a guess that Joe Louis would pick up the least losses. They would both come up against fighters who were bad stylistic matches, but Louis's finishing skills would bail him out in some such cases, which might give him the edge.

So who would beat him?

Hard to say, but I think that he would be about 50/50 against Johnson, Dempsey, Ali and perhaps Tyson as well. I doubt that his luck holds out in all these fights.

Fighters who I would favour him over but see as significant risks include Langford, Tunney, Marciano, Liston, Frazier and Holyfield. Again, I doubt that his luck holds out in all cases.

 

More amusing still is that you have Mike Tyson -the World's Champion Headcase up there on your list.

Speaking for myself, I don't factor in all those variables. Take them at their best -either their peak or their prime, and have them face off. Everything else is equal. Let's not get into whether smoking is allowed in the arena, you know?

I'm gonna cut and paste an old argument for Liston. Feel free to drive in on it!

 

I think the top spot would either be Ali or Lewis.

 

The Case for Liston, Regurgitated...

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When did the cracks appear? Buster Douglas? If so, I'd vehemently disagree. Holyfield? Well, I'd say it's closer but that Liston was probably more foregone from his best days.

I've heard it all about Liston from the alcoholism and the "Stopped training seriously" and he was really "100 years old." I don't deny these factors, I may dispute the severity some people claim his decline to be up until the Ali fight, though. I also don't deny Liston's greatness at his peak. But just look at his life, he does not have the mentality to win a round robin against such opposition. Nothing suggests he could sustain it. Yes, Liston was a force from 58-60, and demolished Patterson twice. His resume is respectable, his character is greatly in question. Unfortunately, great forces and tests never really came to be until he was "past it" to verify he could win this tournament over such a long span of time. Yeah, he soldiered on with grit against Marshall with a broken jaw. Remember that fight, though... he lost it. Yes Williams gave him some trouble for a round or so, but Liston clocked him and finished early and easily afterwards.

 

Jack Johnson

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3. Jack Johnson

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I like to think the real headcase stuff came when he became more of a caricature of himself and outside of his peak, rather than when he was champion of the world.

Speaking of Tyson, he did well to deal with all the issues of marriage and controversy outside the fight up until the Spinks fight. It was part of the reason many picked Spinks, outside of his unorthodoxy. They envisioned implosion. Heck, even after he lost to Douglas after buying into his own hype we saw a period of rather intense dedication and ferocity against a heck of resistance in great puncher in Ruddock. When did we see Liston show half of as much grit and resolve in the face of real force?

I agree with you. But the tournament is set up as 4 fights a year for a 7 year span. So if we're to assume longevity is a factor, then mental strength is obvious paramount. Nothing controversial with questioning Liston, or even Tyson types in the likes of this tournament. I'll agree with that, though. I also think Tyson is just a better fighter, though. And he proved a fair bit of longevity with such a arduous style as well.

 

No, it's perfectly fine idea.

Right, which basically suggests that if Liston is steamrolling opposition, which I don't suspect he will be doing a whole lot of against such ATG caliber opposition, then he'll get rattled, become small and flat out pack it in.

A lot of "Along those lines" are going to be happening, unfortunately for Liston fans.

How many ranked did he beat post Ali. Less than a handful? Who was the highest rated fighter? Clark at #9 or something? Liston was brilliant in his times. I would've like to see him face some sort of force, though. A Walcott or Joe Frazier type. Unfortunately, he trashed a great fighter but one of the weakest, most protected, chinny HW champions at the time.

No one is suggesting Liston didn't have the physical tools to be a good HW fighter. A ranked HW fighter. We're talking about greatness here. We're talking about a will to win and dealing with adversity. Funny enough, you're proving my point by showcasing Liston's actual longevity. Yeah, he could still be a solid fighter after the Ali debacle despite his age and alcoholism. It was his mind that betrayed him, not his body. Thanks for helping me inadvertently prove my point.

Unfortunately it's a 7 year tournament. Unfortunately you missed the nuance of my point. It's not about his physical capabilities whatsoever. Liston steamrolled most of his opposition at his absolute peak. This is rarely disputed.

He'd probably lose to all three men anyway. Liston was a boss, and a good technical fighter but let's not gloss over his weaknesses now.

Straw-man stuff. This happens for better or worse with most fighters anyway, it's rather inevitable (No concession on my part, just speaking generally). Dempsey-Williard, Tyson-Spinks, Ali-Foreman, Foreman-Frazier, etc...

 

Tyson's mental state and the fragility of it seem to be vastly overblown in these hypothetical match-ups of two greats supposed "at their best". It's used as an out-route in many cases due to how the ardous prospect of defeating him is going to unfold. Stonehands just described a hypothetical that is probably closer to the truth than anything else, yet few have the nerve to make that prediction. And their number one reason is that "Tyson would be beat before they got in the ring.".

Tyson was nearly a decade past his "best" when he went bezerk against Holyfield. Even using the Douglas fight, where others see "mental weakness" I could just as easily point out an ill-prepared and conditioned fighter who never got out of first gear and if nothing else, showcased a tremendous ability to withstand punishment while still being dangerous enough to drop Douglas with a single uppercut whilst getting his ass kicked. Prior to that fight, Tyson was rarely even hit flush much less hurt.

 

I agree with many others here: Lewis, Tyson, Holmes, Ali, or Louis might be the head to head king. Most of the others don't quite make it.

 

:deal

Also be sure to tell me when Lennox's super one-punch resistant chin is present.

Or when Frazier shows up blubbery and out of shape. Forget Foreman. His work rate and endurance are severely cut short and he'd suffer against most fighters that could be classified as great.

 

The seven or eight year tourney would definitely present longevity problems for most of the champions.

Given that the idea is fantasy at the outset, the fantasy could be taken further in that every fight would see both combatants at their very best on their best night. And with a time-reset after each match-up.

Under such circumstances, I think Ali and Louis come in at 1 and 2.

Since this calls for h2h prowess rather than overall greatness, I would have Liston next, and then (I can't decide the order) Lewis, Holmes and Foreman.

Again, on account of the h2h nature of the thing, Vitaly finishes well inside the top 10.

 

I couldn't see vitali winning more than a handful here.