H2H Heavyweight King: Who comes out on top?

Indeed. I'd like to see him and Jeffries, can't you just picture it

Top matchup.

 

I'm bouncing right behind those big shoulders, JT, like a little brother. "Yeah! You tell 'im!"

 

Vitali is abysmal.

 

Cheerz!

 

I can...

Using the ironchamp criteria:

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21. Vitaly Klitschko
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Green: Win

Red: Loss

Yellow: 50-50 fight


Record: 11-11-2

 

Louis would beat Vitali, as he did Carnera.

 

Vitali & Carnera are like chalk & cheese in terms of h2h ability.

 

Vitali looks no better on film IMO.

 

I disagree.

Anyway, the astronomical gulf in cheen is enough to set them apart H2H on it's own.

 

Interesting.

Who in that group beats him ?






.

 

Easier to list who I think he beats.

He beats wills, jeffries, langford,

 

I would favour

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Lewis


50/50 proposition

Foreman
Liston


I would favour Vitali over ther rest.

 

I'd fancy Lewis, Ali, Tyson and Vitali to make the final four if none of them have to meet earlier than the semi finals- with Lewis winning the whole thing by beating Ali in the final. That's quite a bold statement but Lewis had it all

 

Even if it's a best of matchup where you're at your peak mentally and physically, it's hard to grasp an idea of how you'll handle adversity and another force when we've only really witnessed you knocking over opposition like its throwing strikes in bowling. That's why entire debates arise from how far off Liston really was when he fought Ali. As pointed out, he did quite well against ranked contender Clark 4 or so years later. To some degree, psychologically, try thinking in terms of champions not just being made but actually born. It's an interesting thought, and a really fine line. It's hardly black & white which is why you get so much dissidence and differing opinions. I think it's far safer going with the Ali, Holmes, Lewis, even Holyfield for his inconsistencies just because of his strength of mind than going with Liston. Yeah, maybe I'm overblowing it. We'll never really know, though. We can only go by what we know. And yeah, Liston was tough. You have to be tough at one level or another to actually be HW champ of the world. And yeah, he fought with a broken jaw against Marshall. Being tough and winning in a tough fight are different stages of mental strength & heart.

Some may wonder why I don't just pick the Frazier, Marciano, and Dempsey types, then? Well, we have to acknowledge physical handicaps and limitations when it comes to the longevity certain styles can and can not allow. If its worth anything, I think Liston probably has a better shot of doing better than the previous three fighters I mentioned. Heck, he may even lose against them and still do better because he can certainly earn a fair share of fairly easy wins against the Norton and Patterson types before facing a stern challenge. The tricky thing about all of this really is having the peace of mind knowing you're conditioned. You see, your not just mentally strong. Yeah, to some degree you're conditioning your body just as much as your mind when it comes to preparing for battle. And to Liston's defense, he didn't have that state of mind in the biggest fight of his biggest career. Still, we do see other side to that coin. Liston quit, not one but twice and was actually scared of Ali because he thought he was a crazy person. Hard to resist pigeon holing him as a bit of a bully, unfortunately.

 

Ali's wonderful performance against Cleveland Williams in '66 gets a lot of attention. "He wasn't even touched!" They say, "It's his peak performance!" Less acknowledged is the fact that when Cleveland Williams fought Ali he was shot --both figuratively and literally.

When Cleveland Williams fought Liston, he was a serious rival. For a heavyweight, I see more skill than most of the big guys today, which isn't saying much I know. Take another look at those fights. Those were wars and it was no promise that Liston would win -he had some shaky moments and you can see it and he admitted it.

Liston had tough fights. He didn't just steam-roll inferior opposition. He cleaned out a division on his way to the champion in his prime. The fact that he was still able to beat contenders when he was in his late 30s and thoroughly dissipated, speaks volumes about what he was in '59-60.

It's hard to resist pigeon-holing Liston as a bully if you find the "Angelo Dundee PR Machine" convincing. I know I don't. Liston was mean and nasty and when drunk he was criminal, but to write off him (or Duran for that matter) as a "bully" exposed by a "hero" (Ali, Leonard) is simplistic and a little naive. I know for a fact that you aren't naive, PetethePrince.

The idea that Liston was scared of Ali is another big fat myth. Dundee and Pacheco sold the idea that "Ali acted crazy because he knew that in prison, the only thing those tough cons are afraid of are crazies." Pure nonsense. You know who acts crazy in the clink? Fish. And they're pretty unconvincing.

If you believe that Liston simply "quit twice," your overlooking alot of context that really changes the narrative. Those connections to Carbo and Palermo are documented. The fact that Liston was a leg-breaker for the mob was widely known. There is at least one very credible witness who will confirm that Liston was doing jobs for them in the late 50s.

As far as ALi-Liston II, well, I think its pretty easy to condemn Liston for quitting and call him a coward. But you cannot dismiss the possiblity that his managers in the shade were cashing him out and ordered him to take a dive. You don't say "no" to those guys.

As for the first one, well, Liston was stupid. I don't buy that he threw that one. I'm convinced that after he slapped Clay in the Thunderbird and Clay did nothing, he believed that he made Clay his b*tch.... and trained to fight a few rounds. That's not an excuse, but he wasn't at his best. Which brings up a cogent point: Does anyone really believe that Liston would take one damn look at, say, Lennox Lewis and say, "bah, I don't need to train. He's my b*tch." I don't think so. Tyson tried to do to Lewis in Vegas what his idol Liston did to Clay in Vegas.... but from what I remember, it didn't work out to well. You can't look tough when you're reduced to biting a man's leg.