H2H top 5 flyweights

Would def consider Roman Gonzalez and Canto the best H2H haven't watched the others enough to really rank them. Roman Gonzalez my number 1 for sure though (are we counting Ricardo Lopez as a flyweight?)

 

Head-to-head, friend? I think Harada destroys Canto. How's he going to keep Harada off of him? In fact, Canto doesn't fare well against many in my hypothetical match-ups. Ohba handily beats him, too. I'd wager on Laciar, too. Heck, even a prime Canto would still lose to Chan-hee Park frankly. And Jung-koo Chang likely beats him more one-sidedly than Park (who beat a faded but still sound Canto in a virtual shutout).

I think we need to separate "greatness" or "accomplishment" and "peak" or "head-to-head" measurements. Too many people confuse or conflate the two things. Canto, as a tiny flyweight without exceptional physical traits, would really struggle against the true freaks at this weight.

 

The one junior flyweight who could compete - and beat many - on these lists is Jung-koo Chang, not Lopez.

 

What a great little thread about great little fighters this is.

 

I have to disagree on most counts, friend. Harada, I do agree, he beats Canto. A terrible match-up - but the rematch with Pone makes me think it's not quite as one sided as we'd expect. But Harada is definitely favourite for me.

I don't agree on Obha. I think his fight with Hanagata shows him struggling with someone who is good at drawing leads and walking him onto point winning shots. I can definitely see him being one of the tougher match-ups for Canto simply because of his reach, height and atg jab though.

I'm not sure Park should be favourite, especially given than an even older Canto was able to eek out a draw in the rematch - but I haven't seen it so I won't comment any further.

I agree on Chang. Awful match-up for Canto. Like, maybe the worst ever.

I don't think Laciar has a very good chance tbh, he had big issues with Roman who imo, isn't as good as Canto. I tend to think that's the kind of fight it'd be, but with Canto taking it a bit clearer over 15. I also don't like how Laciar struggled with Zapata and Ibarra in this match-up, I know Canto was far from a carbon copy of those guys but their success came from the same kind of things Canto does best.

Speaking of which, Zapata is another guy I could see beating Canto. Very difficult to outbox a guy like Zap. I imagine you're wondering why I have Canto #1 if I can see so many guys beating him but it's really just that I see basically everyone dropping them to everyone. Harada and Chang would beat him, but they'd get destroyed by Borkhorsor - but I think Canto can beat Bork for example.

 

Always pleasure to talk with you. You learn more from thoughtful people who disagree with you than from simple-minded who agree with you.

On the second Kingpetch fight, I don't know if I saw much from it that increases Canto's chances versus Harada. I had the fight rather wide in favor of Harada, and there were other factors in that fight to consider - which stacked the deck against Harada. For instance, the Thai fans interfering with Harada's entrance and forcing him to stand in the sweltering heat - which he wasn't as used to as Kingpetch to begin with. But more germane, Canto doesn't have the physical tools of Kingpetch.

I have Ohba beating Canto for Ohba's advances you outline. Again, as in all sports, perhaps I tend to over-rate raw tools, but I find that Canto would have trouble going through that jab and effectively countering the straights from the top.

Some context on the second Park fight, which I did see: Park won virtually every round in the first half of the fight. Canto was also floored, and it looked like Park could have gotten him out of there. He then as usual tired middle of the fight, and then got swept the second half of the fight. So while I think I had Canto winning, it wasn't a case where he was the better fighter or figured out Park. Rather, it seemed to be another case where Park under-trained in preparation for someone he knew he could handle easily, lost stupendous amount of weight as usual, and gassed later in the fight.

On Laciar, again, it's the comparisons that makes me uncomfortable. Of course, you don't say Canto is Zapata, for instance, but the physical differences between the two stand out too much, even if they are both defensive wizards. But this is a match-up I feel the least confident about among the ones I mentioned, so I am willing to be persuaded otherwise.

I, too, agree that Zapata would beat Canto. Also, Borkhorsor would be rough on both Harada and Chang.

 

I'm so glad you're back, I've been missing actual debates about lesser known, little all-time greats.

I'll take another look at Pone, Zapata and Obha. I have a bad habit of forgetting how big the height differences at 112 can sometimes be - especially with Canto - so might be giving him chances in my mind's eye that wouldn't be there for him in real life.

Thanks for that about the Park rematch, I've only read about it and come away from it feeling as though Cantos resurgence in the late rounds as a big adjustment but of course, Parks lax attitude to training cost him big often. Especially against Oguma.

That said, how do you think Canto gets on against Pascual Perez? Also, how about Oguma vs Laciar, eh?

 

Believe me, as a guy with exceptionally short arms (and legs) for my height, I know from experience what a detriment it is to fight guys who have much greater reach - both in boxing and traditional kickboxing!

I haven't seen enough film on Perez to say much about him. I think Laciar versus Oguma would be a barn burner, but I think Laciar would grind him down in the late rounds. I don't quite consider Oguma at the top level in talent or accomplishment. He likely would have been forgotten if it weren't for his unlikely (then, if not in retrospect) wins against Park.

 

By the way, did you see this thread I put up today?

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...ie-magri-a-fight-that-almost-happened.739518/

It's always a topic that fascinated me, and I got a random Youtube recommendation (in Korean) that talked about this today, too. So it brought back memories of 1980...