Hagler : Is he Marvelous or Merely Good ?

[url]http://articles.latimes.com/1986-03-10/sports/sp-2989_1_marvelous-marvin-hagler[/url]


Some Believe Hagler Is Among Greatest of All Middleweight Fighters : Is He Marvelous Or Merely Good?

[url]March 10, 1986[/url]|EARL GUSTKEY | Times Staff Writer
At a news conference in Beverly Hills two weeks ago, Marvelous Marvin Hagler looked at a dozen or so sportswriters and said:
"You people have never given me full credit for what I've done. When I became the middleweight champion, I said I'd fight every top-rated contender. I've done that, and I beat 'em all."

So you examine Hagler's record and find that since he's only lost twice--decision losses to Bobby Watts and Willie Monroe in 1976--he's won 36 consecutive fights, 31 on knockouts, and his last 11 victories have been defenses of his middleweight championship. Three more and he will tie Carlos Monzon for the longest reign ever in the middleweight division.

Question: Just how marvelous is Marvelous?

In search of a clue, more than a dozen veteran boxing observers were asked where they rate Hagler among history's great middleweights. Most placed him among the top five, one rated him the best ever and a few didn't even rate him in the their top ten.

Most gave the "greatest ever" title to Sugar Ray Robinson, the one-time welterweight champion who went on to win the middleweight championship five times in the 1950s. Monzon is rated the runner-up by most of those who rate Robinson No. 1. Monzon, from Argentina, held the title from 1970 to 1977, when he retired after a record 14th defense.

Little support was given to champions of the early 20th Century, such as Stanley Ketchel and Harry Greb, since few today can say they saw Greb, who died in 1926, and fewer still who saw Ketchel, who died in 1910.

But the late Nat Fleischer, former editor of Ring Magazine, in his 1958 book, "50 Years at Ringside," rated the middleweights this way: 1. Ketchel. 2. Tommy Ryan. 3. Greb. 4. Mickey Walker. 5. Sugar Ray Robinson. 6. Frank Klaus. 7. Billy Papke. 8. Les Darcy. 9. Mike Gibbons. 10. Jeff Smith.

It is possible the old-timers simply enjoyed fighting more than today's fighters. Hagler, for example, hasn't been in a good street fight for years.
Fleischer recalled an incident at a New York watering hole, Billy La Hiff's Tavern, at 48th St. and 7th Ave., in 1925. It seems La Hiff's was where the boxing crowd gathered on fight nights.

An hour or so after Greb had defended his middleweight title against Walker at Yankee Stadium, the two had words at the bar. In short order, the two were out on the sidewalk, taking off their coats.

Patrons, Fleischer reported, eagerly spilled out of the bar to see the amazing spectacle of two boxers who'd just gone 15 brutal rounds fight it out in street clothes, slugging their way down the sidewalk for a half block before police arrived to stop it.

A sampling of how some rate the great middleweights:

PAT PUTNAM, boxing writer, Sports Illustrated: "Hagler is the greatest middleweight ever. I rate Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest welterweight ever, but not the best middleweight. Hagler is stronger than Robinson was and he would've beaten him. Hagler has a wonderful capacity to adapt to any situation, he's got a hell of a chin, a great heart, he can take you out with either hand and he's a great boxer. I rate Hagler No. 1 and Carlos Monzon a close second. Those two guys are on one level and all the others are way below them."

NICK BECK, Boxing historian and boxing film archivist: "I wouldn't put Hagler in my top 10. I can think of five guys right now who I'm sure would beat Hagler--Robinson, (Tony) Zale, Jake LaMotta, Monzon, (Marcel) Cerdan . . . my feeling is Hagler is overrated. A lot of people rate him way up there since the Hearns fight. But my feeling on that is that Hagler knocked out a guy who'd panicked and punched himself out. Really, I've never been real high on Hagler since that draw he had with (Vito) Antufermo and I thought he looked very ordinary against (Roberto) Duran."

ARCHIE MOORE, former light-heavyweight champion: "Hagler has done everything you could ask of a champion. He's fought one No. 1 contender after another and beaten them all. I rate him right up there with Sugar Ray Robinson. He's a hard hitter with both hands, he's a southpaw one minute, a right-hander the next. And he's cruel in the ring, like a great fighter must be. Monzon was a great champion, but not in a class with Robinson and Hagler."

DON DUNPHY, boxing announcer: "I have to rate Hagler very high. I wouldn't rate him over Robinson, but I would put him about even with Monzon. I would also put Hagler even with Cerdan. People forget that as great as Cerdan was in this country, he was even greater in Europe. I can't think of any other middleweight who would beat Hagler. (Carmen) Basilio was too small. (Gene) Fullmer couldn't have handled Hagler. Now, (Rocky) Graziano, you have to give him a chance because of that wonderful right hand but after two or three rounds, Graziano is in big trouble with Hagler. LaMotta was a tough customer, but his record is spotty, he had a lot of defeats."

LOU DUVA, boxing trainer: "I think Hagler is hurting when you compare him to a lot of the old-timers. The middleweight division isn't as tough as it used to be. There just aren't any animals around any more. Robinson beats Hagler. Monzon beat him. LaMotta beats him. Hey, Jake would take everything out of Hagler then come back for more. Mickey Walker beats him. And I think a slick boxer from the 1930s, Ken Overlin, would beat Hagler. I even like Fullmer's chances against Hagler."

 

MICKEY DUFF, trainer of John Mugabi, Hagler's opponent today: "Robinson is certainly No. 1 on anyone's list, I would think. I'd put Randy Turpin, a great, great fighter, in second place. Hagler I rate No. 3, and I say that no matter what happens Monday because Marvin is past his peak. He's not through by any means, just past his peak."

EDDIE FUTCH, boxing trainer: "You certainly have to put Hagler in the top five. I'll call it Robinson, Monzon and Cerdan, in that order, so put Hagler fourth. Monzon was a great champion. I had a good kid named Tony Licata who I thought had a boxer's chance against Monzon in 1975. But he just wasn't strong enough to keep Monzon off him. Monzon showed me a lot that night."

BOB HALLORAN, vice president for sports, Caesars World: "Robinson is my No. 1 and it's an easy call because he fought more good middleweights than anyone else. Call No. 2 a tie between Monzon and Hagler."

MURRAY GOODMAN, boxing publicist: "I rate him pretty high. I'd say three guys definitely beat Hagler: Robinson, Fullmer and Monzon. After those three, I can't think of a middleweight who would beat him."

ED SCHUYLER, Associated Press boxing writer: "Hagler-Monzon to me is a pick 'em fight. Robinson? Maybe Hagler beats him. Remember, Robinson lost the title three times. But he was the greatest welterweight who ever lived. All the other guys--LaMotta, Zale, Graziano, Cerdan--Maybe Hagler wins some, maybe he loses some. The point is, Hagler has worked very hard and he's earned the right to be compared to the greats of the past."

BERT SUGAR, boxing writer: "I wrote a book called 'Boxing's 100 Greatest,' in which I rated the 100 greatest boxers on a pound-for-pound scale. I rated Hagler 74th. The middleweights I rated ahead of him were Robinson (No. 1), Greb (3rd), Walker (7th), Ketchel (21st), Cerdan (34th), LaMotta (43rd), Monzon (51st), Tiger Flowers (54th), Charley Burley (64th) and Zale (70th). Hagler isn't close to Robinson in pure ability. Robinson was seamless. Unfortunately for Hagler, he's a champion in an era of weak middleweights and that's not his fault."

DON FRASER, promoter: "I'd call it Robinson No. 1, LaMotta No. 2, Monzon No. 3, Cerdan No. 4 and then Hagler."

DON CHARGIN, promoter: "I rate Robinson over Hagler. My idea of a great fight would be LaMotta and Hagler. Hagler-Monzon would be a classic. In either one, it's a coin flip to me."

BENNIE GEORGINO, boxing trainer: "I put Robinson, LaMotta and Monzon on top, but Hagler is definitely in the top 10. Monzon was a better fighter, he fought better fighters than Hagler has. I might rate Hagler higher had he met and defeated Sugar Ray Leonard, but Marvin never had the opportunity to do that.

ROY McHUGH, retired boxing writer: "Robinson, of course, is No. 1. I never saw Greb but a lot of old timers used to tell me he would've beaten Robinson. I've seen films of Mickey Walker and I don't think I can rate Hagler over him. Monzon was awfully good, I can't separate Hagler from Monzon. And it's hard for me to imagine Hagler hurting LaMotta. Cerdan-Hagler, that's an even fight.
"Hagler probably beats Zale. Maybe Teddy Yarosz, a great boxer from the 1930s, beats Hagler. He had three close fights with Billy Conn. Charley Burley was a middleweight in the 1930s who was so good he had to fight heavyweights to get fights."

MIKE KATZ, boxing writer, columnist, New York Daily News: "How far do you go back? Ketchel? Walker? I'm not sure how good those guys were. I think Hagler stands up there with the best. Maybe he wins some, loses some. Robinson was the greatest fighter who ever lived, but as a welterweight, not as a middleweight. Robinson lost to people I'm sure Hagler would beat. There probably hasn't been a middleweight as versatile as Hagler. He punches with either hand, he can beat you inside or outside, he has a good defense and a tough chin. I'd say Robinson-Monzon-Hagler are very close. Maybe Monzon outboxes both of them. Maybe he plays with them."

IRVING RUDD, boxing publicist: "I put Hagler right up there. Look at the shots he took from Hearns. Those shots by Hearns would have put Larry Holmes on the deck. I'd rate Robinson and Mickey Walker over Hagler. Joey Giardello I give a hell of a shot against Hagler. Hagler-LaMotta? Hey, I'd pay a lot of money to see that one. Really, the only guy I'm certain that Hagler couldn't beat is Robinson. And Charley Burley, maybe he beats Hagler, too."

BILLY CONN, former light-heavyweight champion: "Are you kidding? Hagler? He doesn't make the top 10 if you're talking about guys like Mickey Walker and Fred Apostoli."

 

I think Hagler deserves to be very near the top too. Not doubt he's one of the absolutely great middleweights.

His loss to Leonard - albeit a debatable one (I scored it 115-113 Hagler) - kind of taints his reign a little bit, combined with his somewhat tepid showing against Duran. Two great fighters from lower weight classes, and he was kind of upstaged. I guess the destruction of Hearns goes some way to redress that though.

Middleweight just has so many great fighters who could argued as top 5 and top 10 all-timers, Hagler is definitely among them.