I didn't say they were title defenses, I said rated contenders. How many light heavyweight title defenses did Ezzard Charles have, does it make his case any less as the GOAT @ 175? No, because while being champion falls under achievement it is completely separate from resume. Beating top rated fighters is exactly that, regardless of whether or not a title is on the line. Charley Burley and Sam Langford are two other glaring examples. Yeah, he had a choice between Benitez and Cuevas... He chose the more skilled, tougher assignment who also had the claim to the title's lineage. What's the problem? 09/1978: Floyd Mayweather (No. 6 WW) W-TKO10 10/1978: Randy Shields (No. 4 WW) W-UD10 01/1979: Johnny Gant (No. 4 WW) W-TKO8 06/1979: Tony Chiaverini (No. 4 LMW) W-RTD4 08/1979: Pete Ranzany (No. 5 WW) W-TKO4 09/1979: Andy Price (No. 8 WW) W-KO1 11/1979: Wilfred Benitez (World WW Champ) W-TKO15 03/1980: Dave Green (No. 7 WW) W-KO4 06/1980: Roberto Duran (No. 2 WW) L-UD15 11/1980: Roberto Duran (World WW Champ) W-TKO8 06/1981: Ayub Kalule (World LMW Champ) W-TKO9 09/1981: Thomas Hearns (No. 1 WW) W-TKO14 02/1982: Bruce Finch (No. 6 WW) W-TKO3 Not even including Armando Muniz whom was rated up until just a couple months before Leonard retired him, or Adolfo Viruet who was a top 10 junior welter. If you're going to dismiss the B-level contender guys on his resume, then Marvin Hagler isn't going to have much of one now is he? And he'd proven what exactly at 160 prior to Hagler? It was his first shake at the weight. Bigger, stronger... also more chinny, less physically dominant and unique, less p4p power. Hearns peaked at 154, not 160 so neither caught a 'peak' version per se although he had a far more extended stay, proved more and was more lethal at 147 than he'd ever be at at Middleweight. Pretty obvious stuff -- He was a freak of nature at 147 and rates nearly as high there in terms of attributes, skill and ability as he does at 154 despite the former being far more illustrious and historically rich. Did you read what I posted -- Leonard offered him a second contract and he accepted it. They were going to fight so long as SRL got through Stafford. Ah, but his detached retina was a fabrication. That's why the IBF wouldn't even sanction the Hagler mega fight and instead stripped him for signing to fight Leonard, because that whole retina thing was just an excuse and all. In truth, that's probably the primary reason he started calculating his risks so heavily because prior to that, you're left to grasping at straws. Nah, it was four years on of further decline. :hey Yup, those are my reasons. And Curry? Anyone could have beaten him! Ask Lloyd Honeyghan. In fact, we could run through Ray Robinson's entire significant resume and dismiss all of his wins with this type of terrible logic, the difference being: They already had multiple losses before he defeated them. How many welterweights do you think Armstrong defended his title against? How many rated welters do you figure he beat in total? You might be surprised. He was far more of a force at 126-135. :deal
Yes,he got beaten by a past prime,inactive,coked-up,blown-up welterweight.atsch By the way,can you remind me how many rounds Hagler's previous two fights had been scheduled for?
Leonard takes a 3 year layoff and comes back to beat Hagler. Ricky Hatton takes a 3 year layoff and comes back to lose against a fighter he would have flattened. Hatton, according to Malignaggi has the style that wouldn't be too badly affected either by the 3 year lay off. What does this say about Leonard's abilities?
it says he wasnt confident about his chances to take on Marvin in 82. kept looking the other way when asked to fight The difference between Ali's layoff & Sugar's is that Ali's retirement was forced while Sugar's was carefully contrived
This content is protected that's quite a stretch, comparing Ezzard Charles with someone like SRL when u talk about choices, who would u rather pick as an opponent, some softy who couldnt hit worth a damn or someone that's been breaking bones on a regular basis? Lineage? that's just reason they put out there that amounts to nothing and those so called contenders u mentioned, the difference between them and the contenders Hagler had to deal with is that those faced by Sugar were on te way out while Hagler's, every one of them were number ones that had just reached their peak just look what happened when Sugar tried to deal with the up N coming Terry Norris
This content is protected . How can u be more chinny adding weight? that's IGNORANCE! I can see if Tommy were well established at the time but 4 yrs out of the amateurs? 1 yr championship experience? Tommy was nothing more than a skinny nobody welterweight with a paper title, ribs protruding and all In constrast with the much HEALTHIER looking, faster, stronger, better, more experienced version that aced Duran N Shuler Sure Tommy LOOKED lethal @ 147 bowling over HAS BEENS! can't u read?
This content is protected I never heard of no second contract. Neither has anyone else on this board Not one time in all the years I've read articles has mention of a second offer been mentioned. Sugar chickend out plain N simple and it's a good thing fo him he did speaking of retinas, why did Sugar discard the thumbless gloves starting with lalonde? and if he was fighting despite his detached retina, why didnt he just fight Hagler after the Howard fight? I think he was chicken and only likes slow, easy to hit, worn out opposition If not, then he wouldve taken Micheal Nunn over fat, slow Duran facing slower guys is alot easier than the slicker quicker leaner meaner fighters. See Terry norris for proof
This content is protected decline from what, fighting off the ring rust? My, talk about FRAGILE! u guys sure set the bar low for him
This content is protected so every time Sugar avoids a worth while fighter/champion or, delays for 5 yrs, u have a reason ready for him something like, "well, nobody cared about him" or "he couldnt fight. anybody could beat him" or "Well, he was GOING to fight him but he retired" champion for 4 years translates to anybody could beat him :rofl four years. let's see, that's twice as long as Sugar held his title with about twice as many defenses true he met his match in Lloyd but here again is the trouble with facing young strong contenders for the title as opposed to the more wimpy types from the late 70s
I didn't compare him to Ezzard Charles -- Do you count it against him when it comes to his Light Heavyweight rating? Which versions of them? He fought Obelmejias and Hamsho twice, a MW Duran is one of his best wins, Tommy had no experience at 160, Mugabi built his hype predominantly at Light Middle. Has beens like the guy who had been breaking bones on a regular basis? He'd beaten who at 160 prior to fighting Marvin Hagler? Yeah, taking out Pepino Cuevas, Clyde Gray, Randy Shields, Harold Weston, Luis Primera is certainly more of a track record than complete nothing-ness. How can he be more chinny moving up in weight, are you serious? Because he didn't have the same resistance against middleweights that he did against welters and light middles. Nor the same speed or power. Nor the same physical advantages that otherwise made him a freak at 147. It's all relative to the division and the fighters within it. Paper title, I thought the lineage meant nothing to you? He wiped out the guy you said had actually cleaned out the division, anyhow. So why is it a topic you constantly crow about? If he's obviously not the same fighter in 1987 at 30 years old that he'd previously been, what was he in 1991 at 34, better? You saying Kalule had "NO TALENT" was grounds for ending the discussion on the spot. I imagine it's why quality posters like Magna and Bokaj simply stopped posting in the thread. There's just too much you're seemingly clueless about, won't acknowledge or just troll on devoid of any wit. Leonard did nearly as much as Hagler over his title reign in half the time. He rates just as high at 147 as Hagler does at 160. He's got the better wins, and beat him H2H in Hagler's division having never fought once in it. What happened afterwards changes nothing of the damage already done. Sort yourself out, he's really your favorite fighter. :yep
Yeah, he had a choice between Benitez and Cuevas... He chose the more skilled, tougher assignment who also had the claim to the title's lineage. What's the problem? :deal[/quote]I don't think Leonard wanted Cuevas. And people will say Benitez was a better fighter, he was quicker and had those great reflexes. I never saw anyone make Hearns miss a bodypunch and Benitez did, but Cuevas for Leonard would have been tough. Leonard did not have the power that Hearns did to stop Cuevas in 2 rounds and Ray would have had to avoid Cuevas power and land his own punches. He could of and would have done it, but it would have been nerve racking to him. I never though Ray wanted to fight Cuevas. That is just my thinking. I read four kings but I forget what they said about it, but my feeling was Ray was apprehensive of Cuevas. Hearns would have fought anyone. Hearns had the power. This is why people making excuses for Duran when Hearns knocked him out by saying Ray or Hagler did not knock him out so how did Hearns, Hearns said later " I knew I could knock out Duran. I punched much harder than Leonard or Hagler" I drifted to Hearns and Duran, but the point is Hearns power could bail him out but Leonard would have had to fight Cuevas for at least 7 or 8 rounds before he stopped him.