Harder puncher at 160 - Jones or GGG?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Oct 7, 2020.

Who hit harder at 160?

  1. RJJ

  2. It's a wash/i have no stones.

  3. GGG

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    You are the one who can not even answer my questions , and your not looking good in the debate by that way. You try to lump me into things I did not say.

    Your just another sensitive fan boy afraid to answer my questions. I easily answered your agenda excuse riddled questions for Toney. FACT.

    Let's keep it real, and try to be honest. Quote me in full context. Do not lump me in with what another poster says. You know your guilty of this. Stop it,

    I said Canelo in his prime was better than McCallum at age 35 out of his. Do you understand what that means?

    I also pointed out that Canleo had more success as an upper weight fighter in comparison to Nunn, but also said I think Nunn would beat Canelo at 160 pounds. A fact and being honest. Try it sometime.

    You run from my questions, that's the weakest point in any debate.

    Last chance to save face. Since I answered all of you questions can you answer some of mine? Calling you out. And I will continue to call out as a person who runs to answer the others person in a debate. Hopefully you won't lump me in to what others said, or quote me out of context in the future. Unless that is you character.

    Ready for these easy questions?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    He runs from my questions, your just plan wrong and go off on another tangent.

    FACT. GGG won the WBA Middle weight title before Strum became "Super " champion.

    Who are your favorite fighters by the way? All I see you do is troll white guys.
     
  3. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    Sturm held the WBA Middleweight title from 2007 - 2012.

    Sturm never ducked GGG at 160 if what you claim is correct

    As for your last line , you want me to bite so you can report me to the mods. . Thats the game you play. . In school you were the type to snitch on the popular kids if they were up to no good cos you had no friends. .
     
  4. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Look, it’s very simple.

    We can clear this whole thing up with just a few questions:


    1. When he fought Tiberi, do you think that Toney was 100% at his best, where he fought to his full capabilities?

    Yes or no?


    2. If yes, then how was he able to beat a long list of much better, higher level opponents?


    BJS is very relevant to this thread.

    It’s not about him beating one of GG’s opponents.

    I’m not using BJS an an example in order to try and denigrate GG’s resume.

    I’m a fan of Lemiuex myself.

    He’s exciting and he seems a decent guy.


    The point is this:

    BJS took apart a good fighter in Lemiuex when he was motivated and sharp.

    Yet he should have lost to Artur Akavov who was a European level fighter.


    You know what I’m talking about.

    One night BJS embarrassed a world class fighter.

    On another night he embarrassed HIMSELF against a EUROPEAN level fighter.


    Do you follow?


    One night he looked great.

    The other night he looked garbage.


    Now I asked you why YOU THINK he lost to Akavov?

    Your response: “He was unfocused”


    Right. I agree with you.

    So: Why can’t you agree that Toney was unfocused against Tiberi?


    Again, I wasn’t trying to denigrate GG’s resume by noting that BJS beat one of GG opponents.

    Again, the point was to show you TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT versions of the same fighter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  5. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  6. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You are a joke.

    Pure and simple.

    I asked you if GG had fought anybody as good as Nunn or McCallum in his PRIME.

    It was a very simple question.

    I didn’t ask if he’d EVER fought anybody as good as Nunn or McCallum.

    I asked if he’d ever fought anybody as good as them in his prime.

    I have now asked you SEVEN TIMES.

    You simply cannot give me an answer.


    Yes, you said that in your opinion, Canelo was better than Mike McCallum.

    But that HAS NOTHING to do with the question that I asked.


    I don’t care what your opinion on Nunn and Canelo is.


    This is your last chance with me:


    Did GG fight anybody as good as Nunn or McCallum in his prime?

    Yes or no?


    Answer the question honestly, and then I will answer any of yours.

    Now if you’re not capable of answering such a simple question on the EIGHTH time of asking, do not bother replying back to me.
     
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  7. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I have truthfully answered every one of your questions.

    Again, I can quote you the page numbers and post numbers.


    You ask me a question, I answer it honestly.

    Yet I ask you a question, and you twist it to one that suits your agenda.


    I have now asked you EIGHT times if GG fought anyone as good as Nunn or McCallum in his prime.

    Again, it’s a very simple question.

    Are you going to give me an answer so that I can move on and answer YOUR questions?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  8. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    LOL - Why would I be scared of someone, who gets their butt handed to them on a nigh-on daily basis and has proven themselves to have a shortfall in grey matter on too many occasions to count?


    And, this is where, once again, you have demonstrated your dull wit...

    That I have to explain this to you is no surprise but, part of the same pattern you roll through like a programmable drone. It has actually become so predictable that it is really too boring for words. Nonetheless, they seem necessary, in order to bring closure to yet another misunderstanding, on your part... ... ...

    My point was simple:

    ...You support the outlook from Paz, on Duran and Jones Jr, as "meaningful" because it suits your narrative that Jones wasn't that big a puncher (or not as big a puncher as Golovkin). But, in doing so, you seem to overlook Duran's quite likely very low KO% at 160 or higher.

    The reference to KO% was to highlight your double standard, in respect to the above, since these types of debate are littered with your references to KO%, as proof of punch power, as though it were some kind of immutable constant.

    In another thread, you posted this, in respect to Golovkin:

    So KO% means something to you in assessing a boxer's punch power, right?

    But it clearly doesn't, when someone (like Paz) pipes up with a view that Duran hit harder at 168 than Jones Jr. This is clearly a questionable claim, given that Duran has a KO% of less than 35% at anything 160 and above.

    So yeah - my point was about YOUR perspective on KO% and justifiably so, since you ignore it as a factor when the narrative fits.


    Once and for all - Your question is irrelevant because the answer is implicit in the point I made, but this clearly went over your head, as so many obvious points do, which then sends you on another mindless Mendoza goose-chase.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  9. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He’s been doing this on multiple threads.

    We’ve seen it with other members.

    They pick and choose what’s relevant.

    They keep changing their criteria to suit their agenda.

    I’m going to be honest though, I’ve never seen a poster actually alter someone’s questions before like what he’s done with me.

    That’s a new one on me.

    That’s when you know it’s a lost cause.

    I’m going to get him Dave Tiberi’s autograph for Christmas.

    He’ll love that.
     
  10. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  11. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It is 'strawmanning' at its most blatant (amongst many other fallacious antics); perpetrated, I'm sure, with a genuine albeit misguided belief that these types of approach to debate make them the smartest guys in the room. It really is quite tragic to watch.


    LOL - I think that, if the debates regarding Toney rage on for much longer, a Dave Tiberi autographed boxing glove could become quite the valuable piece of memorabilia.
     
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  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    You're a fanboy joke who can't even answer if you think GGG hits Harder than Duran, because in your mind, it would diminish Roy Jones, on Roids, who did not hit harder than GGG at 160 or 168.

    Paz says Jones does it with speed, as in the punch you're not ready for can get you. He thinks Duran's blows are more impactful. I support what he says because he was the man on the receiving end of the punches. Your not an authority and in typical fanboy fashion due your best to discredit the source, which in turn lowers your value here.

    To be clear, KO%, how fast you stop someone relative to the field, testimonials ( which we have here vs. the two fighters in questions ) and video evidence showing the impactful force mean a lot to me in terms of who hit harder. Re-read that twice. KO% Percentage is not the end all, for power, but there is a correlation. Duran likely has a lower KO% than some that didn't hit as hard as him. But when he lands his best ( Hook ) we can judge. One man here was hit by both Jones and Duran , the testimonial part you must omit. Oh, we get it.

    Not even the
    extreme fanboys would say Duran hit harder the GGG. Well, here at ESB, one might :)

    I also factor 10 counts where the other guy is OUT. I put up a video of 10 of GGG's KO's, I doubt you even bother to watch it because once your mind is made up, you omit any extra data that does not coincide with your rooting interests. That the disappointing part.

    If you want to take KO%, GGG's is higher than Roy Jones. End of.

    The way you try to DQ information, well, you in your own special category there, and I don't mean special in a good way.

    If you would like to answer my questions that Loudon ducked out of, we can at least move forward with them in the GGG vs. Toney thread.

    -M
     
  13. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You have been asked a simple question literally NINE times.

    The fact that you won’t answer speaks volumes.
     
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  14. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    That was like a breath of fresh air amidst all Mendozy's mind-numbing guff. He must consider himself quite the kayo artist with all the people he must have left unconscious on this thread.

    Thank you, Saad, for the 6 or 700 words that you didn't type.

    I'd have still liked it as much even if you'd added the Jnr at the end ;)
     
  15. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Seriously - your display of stupidity here is shocking even me. It's like you're having a discussion with someone else and replying to the wrong post. Either that, or you are just completely incapable of comprehending a simple point, which was posted to highlight your duplicity.

    What part of: "I guess KO% suddenly doesn't matter to you, when a given narrative suits your agenda then" do you not understand?


    Some of your thoughts on KO%...









    Sure, you mention some other criteria which, like your reliance on KO%, goes unchecked against context and might be cherry-picked and/or nonsensical and/or subjectively interpreted - whatever suits your cause, really. So, put another way, your case is usually open to challenge.

    However, it does seem to me that you rely very heavily on Boxrec's KO% for comparing and judging a boxers' punch power.

    Duran's KO ratio at 160 and above was only 32%.

    By your own standards
    , that's a low percentage and, therefore, would indicate that Duran's punch power was not particularly instrumental in his winning bouts at that poundage. And, this is no surprise, since he was a career lightweight, then fighting 5 divisions higher, at an advanced age.

    But wait...

    ...The 'testimony' of Paz suddenly becomes ultra relevant because it supports your way of thinking and, thus, it is unquestionably true for you. This, despite the fact that Paz was never bounced around the ring by anyone else like he was by Jones Jr, who made it look easy; despite the fact that Duran was 43 years old on the two occasions he fought Paz and, despite the fact Duran wasn't stopping a lot of opponents, and not surprisingly, at this late stage of his career, at the weight he was then competing.

    Skip to 2:38 and tell me there's no "impactful force" from the punches landed by Jones Jr, here...



    It's quite discernible, even on a poor quality video. As tough as Paz was, he'd also been humiliated.

    RJJ's speed will almost invariably be the first aspect that people recall about him. But this line of thinking, which treats his speed as being separate from his power is kinda ridiculous. Jones had both, with one facilitating the other.

    It's precisely why he has the more impressive stoppages on film.

    As for me being a RJJ Fanboy, you can ask either @Loudon or @JohnThomas1 about my thoughts on Jones Jr, when discussed in other contexts, such as overall greatness, weaknesses against other greats etc etc. The last thing I could be accused of is being a Roy Jones Jr Fanboy.

    The accusation of fanboyism coming from you, the board's biggest fanboy is... ...well, nothing short of priceless; the starkest example of your capacity for projection.

    And, by the way - I've not so much as hinted that Duran hit harder than Golovkin - LOL. To imply otherwise, as you have done, smells of desperate deceit, on your part.

    YOU brought those words into the exchange - probably because YOU were either too dense to understand the point I made in the first place or just chose to ignore the point and then obfuscate, as you so often do when your BS is called out.

    You really don't know what you're talking about. You rarely do.