Hardest Fighters to plan for?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by George Crowcroft, Jun 30, 2019.



  1. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

    5,482
    4,966
    Sportsbook:
    1,022
    Mar 3, 2019
    Across all weights? Can I have a list? My coach told me to write down 10 ATGs and a definite game plan to beat them

    So I'll handle the game plan can you give me some extra difficult fighters to plan for and their best performances?
    Ones that come to mind for me are Roy Jones, Ezzard Charles, Marvin Hagler, Jose Napoles and Carlos Monzon anyone care to add?
    @BitPlayerVesti @The Undefeated Lachbuster @roughdiamond @Seamus @janitor
     
    Ballista and BitPlayerVesti like this.
  2. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    60,702
    6,953
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 15, 2006
    In the 1930s, it often turned on who there was film of!
     
  3. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Blue Valentine Full Member

    2,397
    3,225
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 25, 2015
    Give me a bit to think. Also, look up the losses of these fighters, especially repeated ones. What did these opponents do, or what didn't x boxer do, which lead to the loss.

    For example, look up Gibbons vs Greb.
     
    KasimirKid and George Crowcroft like this.
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    87,903
    4,188
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 21, 2007
    There are loads of answers to this question - they're endless.

    Take Willie Joyce. He's a jabbing mover of skill and balance, who worked hard but was not a lunatic. The key punch for him was the straight left hand out of the orthodox style. He punched without power and had a world-class defence and a granite chin. What's the plan to beat him?

    You have to get in under the jab, use head-movement and pressure to keep him off balance, stay off-centre, launch a body attack. Out-work and out-fight him, keep on the ribs, give him no room to breath. This fighter is Henry Armstrong. But Joyce was hell on wheels for Armstrong. He got the better of him despite clearly being of a lower class. So your plan was for ****.

    It's desperate, really, when it goes wrong.

    Strange thing for your trainer to do btw. Are you related?
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    87,903
    4,188
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 21, 2007
    Kinda. What that will lead you to is a series of style advantages and the standard plans to overcome those plans.

    If you wanted to make it really difficult, what you'd do is look for fighters who have losses against a fighter who has a style that you'd expect to work against them and are of similar class. Joyce-Armstrong is a jolly good example.

    The Hopkins loss to Calzaghe is instructive too. Bernard's plan was perfect and he executed it very well, he dramtically reduced the number of punches that Calzaghe was able to throw. He lost narrowly though. So how do you fight Calzaghe?
     
    roughdiamond likes this.
  6. Saintpat

    Saintpat Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,423
    2,861
    Sportsbook:
    1,164
    Jun 26, 2009
    Michael Spinks - awkward, could box your ears off and his right hand was a killer when he stopped and planted. He could lull you to sleep and then put you to sleep.

    Tyson Fury - nightmare to prepare for; tall, elusive guy with good wheels and jab and upper body movement. Takes a ton of energy to negotiate into position and when you get there he has escapability. Plus he messes with your head so you have to have a mental game plan to deal with that.

    Winky Wright - southpaw with high guard who gives you nothing and can counter all night.
     
    Big Ukrainian likes this.
  7. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

    5,482
    4,966
    Sportsbook:
    1,022
    Mar 3, 2019
    Cheers for the reply, that's exactly the type of reply I was fishing for.
    To answer your question, no we're not related, he's a close (ish) family friend, he taught my dad and was in the same class as my grandad as a kid.
    He says specifically that the best way to improve as a fighter is to improve your boxing brain, so he gives all of his regular pupils sort of homework, I'm like 1 of 4 tho
     
  8. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,834
    3,614
    Sportsbook:
    82
    Jul 18, 2018
    Pretty much every awkward fighter is hard to plan for

    Hagler is a good call as well. The mix of boxing skills, conditioning and granite chin makes it nigh impossible to out brawl, out swarm and out box him

    I imagine Harry Greb would be a hard fighter to prep for. I disagree on you call about RJJ, I feel as though someone should work on explosiveness and attack Jones relentlessly looking for a huge one punch knockout to expose his weak chin

    Of course easier said than done, RJJ had cat like reflexes and could punch himself. You'd need a great chin.
     
    George Crowcroft likes this.
  9. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti The Ad Wolgast of Googling Stuff Full Member

    4,756
    4,243
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Oct 28, 2017
  10. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

    5,482
    4,966
    Sportsbook:
    1,022
    Mar 3, 2019
    Bob Foster
    Bob Fitsimmons
    Archie Moore

    All would be a handful to plan for to say the least
     
    BitPlayerVesti and 70sFan865 like this.
  11. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Blue Valentine Full Member

    2,397
    3,225
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 25, 2015
    Miguel Canto

    Strengths
    • One of the greatest pure boxers ever, extremely proven against a variety of styles. There is nothing he hasn't seen, or experienced, before in /boxing. If you 15 with him, you'll probably lose. Totally.
    • Mastery of fundamental technique and application. Walking Encyclopedia of Boxing, just like his idol Willie Pep.
    • Fast (footwork and hand speed). Could throw, and land, three left hooks on ya in a flash. Could seamlessly shift from circling left, to right, repeatedly.
    • Defense. Extremely hard to hit flush. His use of footwork, slipping, ducking, Thai guard, neck rolls etc, basically ensures he is almost untouched. Canto would frequently outstretch his arms to cover wilder shots, and to touch and manipulate the opponents lead glove
    • Brain. Analysis and prediction of opponents is ingrained to his style, and has been fortified through experience.
    • Heart. Typically Mexican, despite his style.
    Weaknesses
    • Work rate and activity depends on the engagement of opponent, could be used to set and suddenly break rhythm
    • Relies on knowledge, boxing IQ, and prediction of opponents fundamental moves and patterns. This could be exploited through aforementioned setting and breaking of rhythms repeatedly within the bout. Canto could be tagged through frantic and seemingly 'illogical' movements, patterns and attacks that disrupt his pace. Would need speed to pull this off.
    • Work rate. Although extremely good at setting a pace, and adapting, Canto could still be overwhelmed shortly with less 'logical' and extremely high paced attacks and variations, if an opponent is good enough. Key word IF.
    • Power. Virtually none. Canto was virtually feather fisted. He does not have power to deter a specific aggressive strategy through force, which could be needed.
    • Chin. Questionable. Has suffered KO losses.
    • Thai guard / outstretched arms. A specific guarding technique combined with footwork. Could be exploited by a clever hooker through use of shifty feints and varying jabs, probing and direct.
    • Pint Sized. Small for his weight, though he frequently beat those bigger. Could be exploited by physical fighters, if they're good enough to touch him.
    Examples

    Miguel Canto vs Chan Hee Park 1​
    • The ultra talented Chan Hee Park, of Korea, exploited the deeply rooted fundamental master Miguel Canto by using his speed, skill and work rate to disrupt the reactive nature of Canto's boxing. The constant feinting, sudden switches to quick movement, and probing jab (typical of the Korean technical School) all allowed Park to exploit the small time-frames where Canto was confused in order to tag and manipulate him. Of course, this wasn't easy with such a master, but with Canto's lack of power, there was less worry physically. Park, who had limited durability and questionable heart, must have felt lucky here. Of course, a master such as Canto could even adapt to polarizing styles. He held Park to a draw in a rematch.​
    • This content is protected
    Nightmare Opponent
    • Jung Koo Chang / Fighting Harada. Two fighters with the skills, physicality and awkwardness to succeed, with greater durability, heart and greatness than Park ever had. I would always pick these two against Canto, in tough bouts of course.







    Hope this is a helpful post. Just one example, since the Park bout came to mind first. I could go into much more depth (actual full sentences!) but it would take quite bit of time and work, and you obviously need it sooner than later. Besides, I think a fighter should do it himself (with pointers, of course) to develop his fighting IQ.
    And plans mean nothing if you don't have the heart and resolve to enforce them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  12. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    60,702
    6,953
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 15, 2006
    Harry Greb seems to be the obvious choice.

    If there was some film of him, they might have had half a chance!
     
    KasimirKid and George Crowcroft like this.
  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

    5,482
    4,966
    Sportsbook:
    1,022
    Mar 3, 2019
    Absolute belter of a post mate
     
    young griffo and roughdiamond like this.
  14. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Blue Valentine Full Member

    2,397
    3,225
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 25, 2015
    Thanks. Watch the bout, when you have time (its long...). I used Canto since the Park bout was the first to come to mind, and a perfect example for your post IMO. I might edit in some more to it.
     
    George Crowcroft likes this.
  15. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

    5,482
    4,966
    Sportsbook:
    1,022
    Mar 3, 2019
    Good shout, had fun and hopefully laid out a basic plan

    1) try and find his rhythm, then disrupt it. Make sure he doesn't get involved with it and keep him second guessing with feints, and go full power whenever you follow up a feint, but don't always follow them up

    2) let him get aggressive and counter his uppercuts and hooks, but don't get on the inside. Keep him off balance with tip 1, then try and land a counter right hook over his left, and move right to avoid that right hand with your own right hand open to parry his leads

    3) after the watching the Tyson fight, Michael seems open to heavy pressure, obviously everyone is, but I noticed that Spinks's defence wasn't perfect and seemed easy to hit at mid range, get there and after step 2 follow up with hooks to the body, he overreached so counter move back, into orthodox and drop your weight into a check left hook

    4) he seemed to have quite hectic and slow footwork in the Holmes fights, take advantage by using step 5 and using cut off techniques, Spinks on the back foot wasn't too effect when faced with Holmes's pressure, using good cut off tactics whilst ducking with hooks and using a jab should get him stuck on the ropes

    5) Jab, but not a harmful snapping jab, a pawing jab on the half beat, preferably whilst he's got a foot of the floor to step, knock him off balance and set up follow ups, don't pressure to hard after the jab tho, just jab, cross hook follow through, step back and reset

    What not to do:

    Don't stand and trade...
    Don't let him get in his own rhythm
    Don't try and force your jab at him, use it cautiously and tactfully, just coz Holmes did it, doesn't mean you can
    Don't risk everything to get inside, it doesn't work and ends badly, do it strategically not just rushing in

    Worst Match ups

    Mike Tyson at HW
    Constant pressure and do everything I mentioned other than the pawing jab, and we saw exactly what happened, even tho Michael was coming off a lay off

    Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles at LHW
    Both could adjust to do everything, Ezz would have the advantage with the jab and could upset Spinks technically at LHW, but while I don't feel he'd apply as much pressure as I'd recommend I still think he represents a toxic match up for Spinks
     
    Ballista and Saintpat like this.