I remember reading about a very similar story involving John L and a savate expert. One or both stories may be bogus.
I'll take it. I love hearing these stories of early mixed rules fights. Can I get a source on this please?
The episode featured in the film," The Great John L ,"with Greg McClure as Sullivan. Jeffries said the hardest actual punch he ever received was from Joe Choynski.
Good find. Actually, the hardest punch is the one that knocks you out. You just don't feel it. I don't think Choysnki hit as hard as Fitzsimmons or Sharkey. He simply caught Jeffries with a punch to the jaw ( they had no gumshield back then ) that causes a portion of his lip to get caught between his teeth. The sting of the punch can influence one's memory. Looking at Choynki's record, it does not look like lights out puncher type as he took many men the distance.
The details sound suspect, but he may well have faced a random savateur in an exhibition at one point. Mixed matches happened more frequently before WWI than after.
So in naming Choynski as the hardest hitter he faced,as did Corbett,Fitzsimmons,Johnson ,and Sharkey, Jeffries was mistaken. Thanks for clearing that up.:good
Packy O'Gatty flattened a judo expert in 4 seconds and supposedly he also ko'd an Akido expert just as quick.
Here is an article on a mixed match in 1921 or thereabouts: "When Human Bullets Clash: Great Contest Between Karate and Boxing" When Human Bullets Clash, Kingu, Sep 1925, reproduced by kind permission of The British Library The story of Choki Motobu's contest with the boxer was featured in the Japanese magazine Kingu (King), in the September 1925 issue (No. 9), pages 195-204. It needed quite a bit of detective work to track this down and I must thank Mr. R.A. Scoales of the Japan Society of London and Mr. Kenneth Gardiner of the British Library for their help. It was Mr. Gardiner who finally located a copy of the article for me. I am also deeply grateful to Kenji Tokitsu, an authority on Japanese karate history now living in Europe, who made the following translation of the article. *** In 1921 in Kyoto a series of contests was held between boxers and judoka. These gave rise to much discussion and drew many enthusiastic spectators. The fights were often extremely violent and surprised even those onlookers who regularly attended the annual [judo and kendo] contests at the Butokuden. During the action someone with the appearance of an old countryman went over to the organisers and asked if a late entry to the fighting would be allowed. The following conversation occurred. "Mmm. Who is it you wish to enter?" "Myself." "What? You? Are you a judoka, then, or a boxer?" "No." "Well, what have you trained in then?" "Nothing special. But I think I could manage this type of contest. So, will you let me enter?" "Yes, let him enter!" cried the onlookers who had been following all this with interest. "Everybody would want to see a surprise entrant." "But he says that he doesn't do judo or boxing. I wonder if he does some form of provincial wrestling." "It doesn't matter. Since he wants to enter he must have learned something. If not, he's an idiot. Let him enter!" "Well, okay," said the promoter. "Do you know the rules?" "Rules?" replied Motobu. "What rules?" "It's forbidden [for anyone but the boxer] to strike with the fists and feet." [The boxer meanwhile could not grab or throw.] "Mmm. What about an attack with the open hand?" "That's alright." "Fine, let's get on with it." "Wait a minute. What uniform are you going to wear?" "I'll just wear my ordinary clothes." "Those you're wearing now? You can't do that. I'll lend you a judogi." The promoter brought a judogi, and looked at the man, still trying to make him out. As he stripped a murmur of surprise arose from the onlookers. Although his face was that of a man well over fifty, the muscular development of his arms and shoulders was impressive and his hips and thighs looked extremely powerful. Motobu was asked who he wanted to fight, a boxer or judoka. He replied, "Whomever you like," and the organisers decided to send him in against a boxer named George. [No surname or nationality is given in the article. The name may be invented.] As the contestants entered the arena a cry rose from the crowd. "Look! A surprise entry!" "Who is this Motobu? I've never heard of him." "He looks like an old man. What's someone like him entering a contest like this for?" The contrast between the two men was striking. Here was a boxer seemingly brimming with vitality against a man of fifty who stood only 5 feet 3 or 4 inches. As they began, George took up a boxing guard and moved about looking for an opening. Motobu lowered his hips, raising his left hand high with his right hand close to his right cheek. The spectators thought this looked like some kind of sword dance (karate was more or less unknown in Japan at this time) but actually it was the opening position of the Pinan Yodan kata. George, the expert boxer, seemed surprised by the ability of the opponent whose guard presented no weak spot. He contented himself with searching for an opening, continually moving his fists around and feinting. Motobu kept his position. George's breathing grew less steady and, realising that he might tire himself out if things continued like this, he edged forward and sent out a fusillade of blows to the face. Everyone expected to see the end of Motobu but without moving his position he parried the blows with his open hands and forced his opponent back. Growing more and more frustrated as the fight went on, George steeled himself for an all out attack. He drew back his right hand and threw a punch with all his strength at Choki Motobu's head. Just at the moment when it seemed as if Motobu's face would be crushed he warded off the punch with his left hand. The force of the parry unbalanced the boxer, forcing his hips to rise, and at that instant Motobu struck him in the face with the palm of his hand. George, struck on the vital point just below the nose with the rising palm strike fell to the ground like a block of wood. Everyone was shouting! What had happened? The organisers went to look for someone to help George, who was still unconscious. "What a formidable character!" Various people who went to talk to Motobu were astonished by his hands, callused and almost as hard as stone. Even a blow with the open hand would be terrible, they thought. "Ryukyu karate," said one. "Hmm. I didn't know such an art even existed. In fact, you have such trained hands that you don't need to be armed. The hands themselves are terrible weapons." Spectators and contestants continued to talk for hours about the events which had taken place. *** A few observations on this old article might be worthwhile. As I said, when I first heard about it I thought it might give an accurate account of the contest, but although it obviously relates to the events which occurred, both the descriptions of the action and the dialogue are imaginative. The author, someone writing under the pseudonym Meigenro Shujin, does not give his sources but he had done some basic research and probably had talked to some of the spectators or even Motobu himself. He may have even been at the event, but somehow I get the impression that he was not an eyewitness. In any case the article appeared four years after the events described (if the date of 1921 is correct) and by then people's memories may not have been too clear about what actually happened. One point of interest is that the artist who did the accompanying illustrations (K. Nabashima) confused the two karate masters teaching in Japan at that time -- Choki Motobu and Gichin Funakoshi -- and drew the illustrations as if it had been Funakoshi and not Motobu who had defeated the boxer. I wonder what Choki Motobu thought about that when he saw the article? For other source material the artist and author must have used Gichin Funakoshi's Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu, published the same year (1925), as the illustration for "the guard of Pinan Yodan" is copied directly from that book. Of course the posture shown is not an "on guard" stance but an intermediate position of defence before a counterattack is launched. The writer probably chose this stance because it looked very "karateish", but it is hardly conceivable that Choki Motobu would use it. Kenji Tokitsu has pointed out it is unlikely that Motobu knew the Pinan kata, and even if he did know the order of the movements he did not practice them sufficiently to apply the techniques in combat. Anyway, we know that Motobu's fighting stance was much more natural and orthodox than this. One point that does emerge from the story however is that Motobu fought without the use of gloves and struck the knockout blow with his bare hands -- whether with the palm or closed fist we can't really be sure. It does not seem that Motobu used palm strikes much at other times. The nationality of the boxer is not given but there is a tradition that he was German or Russian. His identity will probably never be known, and even if it was, it probably wouldn't mean very much to us. He was probably a White Russian who found himself in Japan and was making some money knocking over judomen. That he was the German heavyweight champion on his way to the USA to fight for the world championship, as has been suggested, is extremely unlikely. There simply was no German contender for the title at that time. The top European heavyweight was the Frenchman Georges Carpentier who did fight for the world title in July 1921 and was stopped by Jack Dempsey in four rounds. The first German boxer to acquire international reputation was Max Schmeling but he didn't win the German title until 1928, when he beat Franz Diener. [EN8] As for him being the "Russian Heavyweight Boxing Champion" (per Bruce Haines in his Karate's History and Traditions), the Russians did not even have an organized boxing movement until after the Second World War, when they began competing internationally in all sports. [EN9] All this is not to put down Choki Motobu's achievement, but just to try and introduce some kind of perspective into the stories which have grown up about this contest. I think that, sitting there watching the action, Motobu must have realised he had the measure of the boxers, but it still took courage and confidence to step up in front of a skeptical crowd and accept the challenge. When the fight actually began, he did what had to be done -- and he did it at an age -- fifty -- when most people today are happy to spend their time in front of the television or down at the pub. What a fascinating character he must have been.
Boxing vs. judo matches are an interesting (and now forgotten) piece of history in their own right. They were especially popular between Japanese and American servicemen. By the 1920s, so-called "Merikan" matches had developed formalized rules: http://www.bullshido.org/Merikan