Harold Johnson vs Sonny Liston

They were actually scheduled to fight during the mid 50's, but Johnson pulled out with an injury. At that point in their careers, I think Johnson would've won, as Sonny was very inexperienced and not the puncher he would later develop into. Both in their primes, however, Liston would be too big, too powerful, and have too much physical equipment for Johnson to handle. If Johnson tries a cautious stick-and-move approach, he has a shot at lasting the distance in a Machen-type fight, maybe making it somewhat close, but losing a UD. If he tries to make a fight of it, Liston by KO.

 

This is possible. However Johnson could not handle pressure fighters. I think he'd find Liston's jab as too long and dangerous. Liston beat some experienced guys early in his career. I'd go with Liston over Johnson as early as his 10th fight.

Liston sometimes could be countered…if the other fighter had had will to stand in position to deliver the punch. I don’t think Johnson would do that vs Liston like Machen did on occasion.

 

Johnson was nothing if not a counter puncher ,he fed off his opponents,Archie Moore complained "Harold makes you do all the leading",Listons style would suit Johnson but his size and power would not,plus Johnson wasnt as good a mover as Machen ,who wrote the template on how to fight Sonny.Are you sure you aren't thinking of Phil Johnson ,Harolds father? Seems you get all hot and sweaty whenever the name Johnson is mentioned

 

Liston was losing and going to split decisions with guys like Marti Marshall, Bennie Thomas and Johny Summerlin within a couple years of the would've-been Johnson fight. Marshall, who subbed in at the last minute for Johnson in his third fight with Liston, still lasted the distance, although he was easily outpointed.

Liston had never faced, let alone beaten, anyone even slightly close to Johnson's caliber at that stage of his career. The best opponent he had fought was ex-light-heavyweight-fringe-contender Marshall, who beat him the first time, had him down before being stopped in the rematch, and went the distance in the third fight. I don't think Liston had really matured until his post-jail sentence fights.

And why wouldn't he? Johnson certainly didn't lack heart or guts. He was a better and more experienced boxer than Machen, and beat Machen himself not far from the time Liston did it. What would make you think Johnson wouldn't have the gumption or skill to counter?

 

Because Harold Johnson was a weak puncher. Liston would not respect him. Johnson lost to the better pressure fighters who can hit. Machen was not a pressure fighter who could hit. Liston was a pressure fighter who can hit.

I think Summerlin hit harder than Johnson did, and a green Sonny beat him.

Liston was 13-1 when he was scheduled to meet Johnson, with wins over Summerlin, Marshall, and Brtko. I think 14 fights, plus Liston's physical advantages would prove to be too much for Harold Johnson.

We also have to look at how this fight would be fought. Liston had a great jab and an 84” reach. Johnson’s reach was but 74”. How is Johnson going to win the battle of the jabs? He isn’t and standing toe to toe with Liston is not an option either. Maybe Johnson could counter a bit, but he risks getting knocked out and counter punching alone hardly ever wins a fight. I just don’t see Johnson landing enough to win on points. A TKO win for Johnson is highly unlikely. Liston on points or TKO how I see this one going.

Liston a very hard match up for any light heavy.

 

Interestingly Johnson did better against common oponents than both Liston and Ali.

Makes you question whether the Ali era was the huge leap forward it is often made out to be.

 

I think a very talented light heavyweight boxer type can beat cruiser or small heavyweights based on skills alone. However if the light heavyweight boxer gives up too much reach vs a skilled puncher -jabber like Liston, he's virtually out of business.

Harold Johnson was a great fighter, and a very under rated guy. But we are talking about Sonny Liston here. I have seen all of Liston fights vs smaller boxer types. They have little chance to beat him. He walks them down behind a long ram rod of a jab, and if he catches them in the ropes or the corner, or if the other guys is foolish enough to stand at trade with Liston, it’s going to be a short night.

 

I dont think Johnson was that weak a puncher he had32 kos in 87 fights but when you consider over a dozen of them were against Heavies ,that isn a poor percentage really.

 

Well, 32 ko 's in 87 fights is a lowly 36.78% knock out percentage. We are talking about H. Johnson vs Liston here. My main point was Johnson was not agressive, and his power would not get Liston's respect.

 

The truth hurts but it remains the truth.

 

Insofar as I know, Johnson's losses were as follows: one to Walcott(slick boxer), four to Moore(boxer-puncher), one to Satterfield(pressure fighter who could hit, but by a split decision, and Johnson beat him badly in both of their rematches), one to Oakland Billy Smith(unsure about Smith's style really, but Johnson was jumping in there too fast after an absolute war with Moore less than two months previously), Pastrano(a boxer-type in a heavily disputed decision), and then two to journeymen at the tail end of his career. I don't see any particular tendency towards losing to pressure fighters who could hit.

Yes, but by split decision when Summerlin had a broken nose from sparring. Besides which, Summerlin may or may not have hit harder than Johnson, but he certainly wasn't anywhere near as good a fighter- in fact, he was badly beaten by not one, not two, but three different Johnson victims.

Yes, but he lost, was knocked down and went the distance/to a split decision against the first two, and Brtko(interesting name!) never beat any heavyweight who anyone who would've been in the top 50 and doesn't constitute a noteworthy win.

We need to put this into perspective.

On the one hand, we have a guy with no amateur experience to speak of and only 14 pro fights(in which he was 13-1 with only 7 knockouts), who, as the highlight of his career so far, has narrowly gotten the better of a couple of gatekeepers, usually going the distance and struggling.

On the other hand, we have a guy who, at 50-7, is a tried, tested and proven veteran, a former world title challenger and a regular in the elite championship mix, and has already beaten four future Hall-of-Famers and a slew of heavyweight contenders.

To further illustrate, note that Marty Marshall beat Liston in mid-'54 and then had him down before losing the rematch in early '55- right in between those two fights, in late '54, Johnson fought Marshall and beat him easily, putting him down and nearly out along the way. Interestingly, Johnson and Liston actually fought several common opponents at about the same time over the years, and Johnson actually comes out of the comparison quite well- he did much better against Marshall, beat Whitehurst in about the same fashion as Liston did, didn't blow out King or Bethea the way Liston did, but dominated them, and beat Machen in comparable fashion, although maybe not quite as comfortably. This isn't to say Johnson was as good as Liston at heavyweight(Liston was a good deal better at his peak), but it does indicate that even a prime match-up between them isn't a mismatch, and that as of the mid-50s Johnson would be the deserved favorite.

Johnson was at approximately the same height-and-reach disadvantage against Valdes, who had a similar style to Liston, and beat him in a shut-out. This isn't, of course, to say that Valdes was even close to as good as Liston, but I think he was absolutely close to as good as a 1956 Liston. From what I've seen of Johnson, he looks shifty with fast hands, good reflexes and plenty of mobility. If he fights cautiously and uses a bit of an in-and-out, stick-and-move strategy, I don't see why he wouldn't be the favorite to beat a 1956 Liston. Don't forget, here, that Marshall was no bigger than Johnson and not even on the same planet in terms of ability, and still split fights with Liston within two years of this time, and then, while subbing in at the last minute, still lasted the distance with him the same night Johnson was scheduled to fight him.

 

You mostly listed matches with pressure fighters and guys who can hit. I think the four Moore matches, and Satterfield match suggest a match up issues for Johnson vs aggressive punchers. Neither Moore or Satterfield could jab like Liston, hit has hard as Liston, or had Liston’s range. Johnson never beat a fighter who hit like Liston could.

In both fights? Summerlin was a decent fighter. He was 19-1-1 and 19-2-1 when Liston beat him. Both fights happened in Summerlin's home town of Detroit. Perhaps that had something to do with one of the fights being a split decision win for Liston. While Summerlin was not as good as Johnson, this was Liston's 6th and 7th pro fight. By Liston's 14th fight where he was supposed to fight Harold Johnson, Liston was on a 5 win KO streak. I think he found his groove.

Indeed. It was the theater of the un-expected. In Liston's 8th pro fight he was caught laughing at an awkard Marshall when Marshall broke his jaw. It was a split decision loss for Liston. Marshall, like Summerlin was a Michigan man fighting in his home town state. Was the decision fair, or was there some home town cookin' here? There was no lost love for a black X Con vs a white local boy in the ring. At any rate, by Liston's 14th fight when he was scheduled to face Harold Johnson, Marshall subbed in and Liston knocked him out.

I agree. The loss was avenged twice.

This is misleading. Liston won a few amateur tournaments, including the national Golden Gloves in 1953. Liston had about 20+ amateur fights, and by his 14th fight had a 5 KO win streak.

Valdes was a ***** cat in the ring. Liston was a tiger, and pressed the action more.

This does not explain how Johnson would defeat Liston, unless you're counting on Liston underestimating Johnson, and getting caught with a broken jaw. Throw in some home town judging for Johnson like Marshall had, and maybe then I could see Johnson earring a decision win here. Otherwise, he is at a disadvantage. Harold Johnson could fight. I tend to doubt Liston would under estimate Johnson like he did vs Marshall.

 

Ike Williams had60 kos in 153 fights ,would you call him a weak puncher? And he wasnt facing lots of men a division above him.

 

Nah, he must have fought 93 guys with iron chins