Harry Greb Draws The Colorline

Only one poster getting emotional here.

 

You're overrating him in this post.

Who cares if he won an American Light Heavyweight Title? That's like proudly stating an all-time great won the North American Boxing Federation belt. It's not a world title. It's nothing.

And Greb didn't win 45 fights in 1919. He won 9. Still impressive. But not 45. Nine fights, either by official decision or stoppage that year.

Nine times his hand was raised, not 45 times. Only nine.

He got in the ring 45 times, but everyone agreed for 36 of those that they were just going to mix it up and get paid, and it didn't matter unless someone got KOed. Some guys gave it their all. Some didn't.

But EVERYONE fought Harry Greb (he certainly wasn't avoided) because he didn't knock a lot of people out.

Why do you think everyone fought him over and over in no-decision bouts? Because he had a poor KO record, getting to the final bell meant no one won, and they all got paid.

Guys didn't have six-week training camps. Instead of sparring, they engaged in no-decisions (every couple weeks or even days) to make money. Those were the rules. There were no official judges.

Nobody WON a no-decision via decision. Nobody's had was raised at the end.

It's so ridiculous how far this has gotten out of hand.

How a guy who nobody alive has seen fight, who made a handful of middleweight title defenses, won a NORTH AMERICAN title has, in this century, become the best fighter who ever lived, I have no freaking idea. But it's pure fantasy.

It's ridiculous. In the boxing magazines in the 60s and 70s, you rarely see him on any all-time lists. And that's when guys who saw him fight were still alive.

And the same fans who insist all those no-decision fights were really WON by Greb, they're the same fans won't count WSB bouts Usyk competed in as heavyweight fights - even though they were pro fights, with pro officials, official verdicts were rendered, winners hands were raised at the end, and everyone got paid - because it was agreed the fighters would only participate if it didn't count on their official records.

There have been one-night, winner take all tournament fights that I've watched. They have official judges. Scores are announced. Hands are raised. They don't show up on official records. Everyone's fine with that.

Those fights are more official than Greb's no-decision DECISION wins. (There were actual judges involved.)

But, with Harry Greb, if a guy from a Pittsburgh newspaper showed up and said he thought Harry Greb outslapped someone in a fight with NO JUDGES, then Harry damn well won.

Whatever. This seems to just have gotten completely ridiculous.

 

BRAVO

 

Absolutely scintillating post. I always knew this guy was more myth than legend even without knowing this.
He may not have beaten Tiger Flowers even once due to racism and fight fixing.

The go-to argument for his greatness is Tunny. Took only one victory over an injured Tunny who despite bleeding into his eyes fought on almost even terms for 10 rounds.
The better fighter btween the two is the one who adapted. Great fighters adpat and perform better in rematches.

 

Nat Fleischer, the creator of The Ring magazine, described these “newspaper decisions” bouts this way: “Newspaper decisions are rendered when the state does not allow an official decision and the sporting writers give their opinion as to who won the fight
in the newspapers.” “No Decision” fights, as they were also called, were still the norm in Pittsburgh when Greb started fighting. For example, fighting was legal in New York, so there could be judged with an official decision. Therefore, in the record books you will see “ND 6,” which means a newspaper decision fight scheduled for six rounds.
In Greb's time they were real fights, although unofficial, for legal reasons.
If the 'no decisions' isn't a real fight, then we should wipe out Sullivan's record or something less.

In the 45 fights of 1919, among the 'no decisions' there were 2 KOs and 3 TKOs. Is a fight with a KO or a TKO real?

Although he didn't win the world light heavyweight title, Greb beat the best in that weight class. He defeated light heavyweight world champions Battling Levinsky, Jack Dillon, McTigue, He also beat heavyweight Willie Meehan, who had just beaten future heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey. He beat heavyweights Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Tommy Gibbons, with whom Dempsey defended his world heavyweight title. He was the only one to beat Tunney, twice according to most.
All this, without considering what he did in the middleweight

 

Yeah but forget facts we know Greb was all just a myth. LOL. Seriously though we know who he beat outside of ND fights and we know what other fighters said about him. The guy is the GOAT, only Langford really compares overall.

 

Very thoughtful, interesting post that challenges convention and punches it straight in the mouth. Let’s see if convention can hit back.

This was covered in some detail (without conclusion) in this thread some years ago. It meandered without really getting to the point, imo, until Page 10, when I tried to take it in the direction it was intended. There’s some good stuff here all around for those who might like to see the discussion:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/why-was-greb-ranked-as-no-1-so-late.405665/page-10

Truth be told, Greb was held in high regard in his day and beyond, but it was relatively recently that he became something of an historic P4P overnight sensation. His star rose from the ashes to put him on god tier, whereas before he was not put in the company where we see Ray Robinson and some others reside.

It remains, to me, a curiosity. I wonder if another 20-40 years might see his consideration further rise, or fall.

How to regard no decision bouts is worthy of its own thread … hell, it’s own book or more. I agree with the thesis that they can’t be seen quite the same as fights where a verdict is sure to be levied (at least not on the whole, surely with exceptions both ways — some were probably ‘gentlemen’s agreement’ sparring sessions where both agree to make it look good but not harm each other so they can jump into the next bout for the next payday; some surely as a ‘real’ and savage as any fight in any era). There was certainly a ‘thing’ where if two guys put on a good show in Cleveland they could take that same bout to Detroit and some other towns … so making sure it was competitive but not decisive could be its own reward.

I hope you’ve sparked some fuel to light up this discussion on how to regard history.

 

The ABA belt was a world or major belt. There were no world sanctioning bodys. The IBU was the only sanctioning body that had the word "International" or "World" in its name.

Also the 70s NABF belt was a big fing deal.

The big problems with Grebs resume is yeah the short NWS fights and lack of finishes. Also this generation is unusually friendly to fighters with high SOS's with some losses because of their frustration with modern boxers.

 

Good post. Many factors come into play here, even human psychology. I make a comparison from classical music. Giovanni Viotti and Antonio Vivaldi, two great composers. Viotti was contemporary with Mozart and, in his time, as famous as the Austrian, if not more. Today he is almost forgotten. Vivaldi was almost forgotten for two centuries, today he is one of the most famous composers. These variations in evaluation do not only happen in boxing. Making comparisons between boxers from different eras is always difficult. Different rules, different equipment, therefore different training, techniques, tactics. Different social context too. With all these limitations of judgment, Greb's career is impressive, very impressive and places him among the best middleweights ever. Nobody knows what Greb would do against Hagler, just as nobody can say for sure what Johnson would do against Usyk. However, Greb and Johnson's careers remain and by those that must be judged, in reference to what happened and not to what could have happened if ... In my opinion. Good day

 

If only we had film of Vivaldi composing, we could better compare him to the Beatles and Taylor Swift!

 

As I recall, from reading the Greb bio, Greb was contracted to fight someone else and, last minute while he was in the ring, they tried to substitute Panama Joe Gans. This is why Greb refused to fight him.

How many top fighters today would be in the ring waiting for their opponent only to be told he was being subbed for someone else that wasnt agreed upon and still go through with it?

 

For what it's worth, Greb fought Willie Langford March 18, 1918, emphatically denying the color line to the press.

 

1) your reply focuses on 'no decision' fights, without touching on the quality of Greb's opponents, which is beyond question;
2) Nat Fleischer was a great boxing journalist. Debatable and criticized in his judgments on the value of the fighters, because he was very tied to the past. However, he knew boxing well, very well, even its history.
3) You don't like Fleischer? Well, then you can consult old school boxing history essays, such as those by Adam Pollack on Sullivan or Johnson, where he mentions several no decision fights. Fights reported in their records as real fights, such as Johnson-Munroe or Johnson-Jeannette, or even other boxers, such as Ketchel-O'Brien, Flynn-Langford etc. etc. etc. Returning to Greb, Bill Paxton's study on him (almost 500 pages, the most complete ever written), includes the no decisions in his record and considers (almost) all of them real fights. To be precise, some, very few, he considers exhibitions. Others, almost all, real with a winner.