Harry Greb Footage

Newsreels rarely showed actual fight footage after 1912 due to the interstate ban on boxing films. This also applied to newsreels and so its very common to find newsreels from that era that show footage of the fighters shaking hands, entering the ring, and the audience with an intertitle stating "No actual fight footage will be shown due to federal law" or something of the sort.

As late as 1939 the commentator in this newsreel of Louis-Lewis states the same:

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I could do this all day, but I can't today.

I have tons of magazines from 60s, 70s and 80s. Same as films. He just didn't appear in the ratings that much, let alone be proclaimed as the best pound-for-pound, as he is today.

Greb wasn't included in even the top 10 middleweights or top 10 light heavyweights all-time by the Boxing Writers in 1980, according to the Boxing Writers' "then" president in this video.

They don't even include Greb's photo or name in the fighters they don't show footage of.

Again, it's a relatively new phenomenon. The guys who wrote the books today proclaiming him the best, like Compton, will admit they knew next to nothing about him growing up. Because people back then didn't really praise him like they do now.

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Here's a separate one on just the middleweights.

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Again, I don't want to get into the same old arguments about Greb, this is just about why his films weren't saved while other fighters films were.

 

I might add Harry Greb has not had a single fight (and no footage of him fighting has been released) SINCE that video in 1980 when the president of Boxing Writers (and all the newspapermen who covered boxing) DID NOT rank Greb among the 10 best middleweights or light heavyweights all time.

 

No one likes dubbledim.. he's got a chip on his shoulder when it comes to certain fighters.. 'relatively new' .. here's Jack Dempsey - "the fastest fighter I ever saw.. hell Greb was faster Benny Leonard"..

Tony Galento who fought Joe Louis - "Greb was the greatest fighter i ever saw"..

Gene Tunney - "The toughest fight I've ever had was against Harry Greb"..

I suspect these folks knew what they were talking about ..

How many men can say they conquered Walker, Loughran, Flowers, Norfolk and Tunney.. no one other than Greb.. Greb is unquestionably one of the greatest of all-time, pound-for-pound. If not THE..

 

There is a lot of newsreel footage of fights from the 20s, 30s, 40s, etc. ... (Wills, Dempsey, Tunney, Firpo, Carnera, Baer, and on and on) and newsreels weren't limited to the US, either. Title fights up and down the weight classes. Now, I've got to go.

Nice discussion.

 

Greb discussions are definitely some of my favorite discussions on the forum.

 

No chip. No need for name calling. (Way to ruin the vibe. It always has to end that way for some.)

And you have listed exactly one person (Galento) who apparently said Greb was the best fighter he ever saw, and didn't include a source where that quote came from. So, great addition to the discussion.

 

I actually like dubbledim and honestly, I don’t really like you. He brings a fresh perspective, which is a nice break from the usual hero worship over fighters we have zero footage of, something you seem to contribute to. Maybe let him speak instead of trying to shut him down just because you don’t like what he’s saying. Otherwise, forums like this get stale real fast.

 

Agreed.

 

I think that's just you being selective & trying to convey a narrative thats suits your bias.. because imo you're talking absolute horse ****.. The Ring have often featured articles and rankings that acknowledged Greb's dominance and unique fighting style.. especially under Fleischers tenure, Fleischer was a huge admirer of Greb.. I'm sure if people went through the archives they would find plenty .. i remember reading some of those articles myself many a moon ago.. just like i have read Hank Kaplan's (widely regarded as one of the great historians) verbal and written endorsements of Greb .. "The man I believe to be the greatest fighter who ever lived is Harry Greb ".. also i remember too that in 2002 Ring Magazine listed their top 80 fighters of the last 80 years & Greb was 7th.. but just because you supposedly have tons of magazines that dont mention him much from the 70s he must be getting overrated by boxings newbies LMAO.. ya ok..

 

I would like to ask those who know how do you rate Greb based on his heavyweight career?

 

Here's a great article on Greb from 1980:

A Tale of Two Harrys

Theirs was one of the great, enduring friendships in boxing history. One
went onto great accomplishments in journalism; the other, to pugilistic
immortality.

Harry Keck first met Harry Greb in 1914, when Keck was with the
Pittsburgh Post. Greb was in his second year as a pro. Greb had just
returned from Philadelphia, where he had spent most of a year because
promotional difficulties had led to a temporary suspension of boxing in
Pittsburgh. From then on, Keck was with Greb throughout his career
and conversed with him in Pittsburgh the night before the great
middleweight died on an operating table in Atlantic City in October,
1926.

To the day he died, in April of 1956, Keck vehemently, jealously
guarded the memory of Greb-about whom, Keck argued, more drivel
had been written than about any other fighter.

In 1964, Keck told me, "With each passing year, the Greb legend gets
sillier and sillier. His alleged skirt-chasing, drinking, and apathy to training
are canards that evidently will never die. Harry liked the companionship
of both men and women, would take an occasional drink, and trained as
hard as any fighter I ever knew."

"Like so many of the old timers," Keck remembered, Greb often used
one fight as preparation for the next. Don't forget-he fought so often that
this training didn't have to be the elaborate month long ritual modern
fighters make of it."

Keck said most of the Greb stories were rehashes of the old balderdash.
"The stealing goes on and on—and there's no end in sight," Keck would
often remark "Next thing you know, some idiot will insist Greb had three
arms."

In July, 1925, Greb gave Mickey Walker a shot at the middleweight title
he had won two years earlier from southpaw Johnny Wilson. Walker, at
the time, was king of the welterweights. It was a thrilling, vicious fight,
and Greb—seven years older, over the hill, and fighting with only one
good eye—smacked Mickey around more than somewhat. Out of that
fight came one of boxing's hoariest fairy tales: that the two men had a
second brawl outside a New York nightclub. According to the fairy tale,
Walker won that one. Mickey regaled many an afterdinner audience with
that story—not a word of which, according to Keck, was
true.

"I was with Greb, from the time we left the Polo Grounds after Harry's
brilliant victory, until we checked into a mid-town hotel," Keck recalled.
"We didn't even see Walker. But if he's happy with the yarn, let him have
it. There's such a thing as a man telling a story so often that he begins to
believe it himself. Walker says it happened; I say it didn't."

I once asked Keck if he thought Greb had ever known the meaning of
fear.

"I doubt it," he replied, "although I do know that Harry once turned
down a chance to fight Fred Fulton. 'It's not that I'm afraid of Fulton, or
that I don't think I can beat him,' Greb told me, 'but he's tall and has a
fine jab and might bust me up pretty good before I could get to him. I
have too many main events left in me to take the chance.' That was
Greb, the fighter's fighter,a pro all the way. He wasn't bookish, neither
was he stupid."

"There weren't any such things as fan clubs in those days, Keck
reminisced, "but had there been, Greb would have had a dandy if just his
opponents been eligible for membership. And the president of the club
would have Gene Tunney."

Gene Tunably, who lost his only professional fight to him, remembered
Greb as the greatest fighter—"in spots" —he had ever seen. Gene was a
sincerely grieving pallbearer at Greb's funeral, and Tunney's esteem for
his old opponent, far from waning, grew stronger with the passing of the
years. They had fought five times, and only the first bout had Greb been
victorious.

Tommy Loughran once remarked that in his day the woods were full
great fighters—"and on top of heap sat Harry Greb."

Augie Ratner, a tough journeyman middleweight of Greb's era, went
rounds with Harry—20 in New Orleans and 10 in Pittsburgh. When I
visited Augie in Sanger, Calif., Augie said "Greb was a clean fighter with
me." He said Greb was one of the three best ringmen he ever saw. Ted
Kid Lewis and Benny Leonard were the other two.

"Sure," Augie said, 'I've read those stones about Greb being the dirtiest
fighter who ever lived. I didn't see him
in all his fights, but those I did see were wild and woolly affairs—mostly
because of Greb's hurricane style. I saw men much bigger than Harry
deliberately foul him, and then all hell did break loose. Because Harry
always gave as good as he took. Outside the ring, he was a personable
guy with nice manners."

Even Billy Roche, the famous oldtime referee and manager, in writing
about Greb, repeated some of the myths about Harry.

Wrote Roche:

"Greb didn't confine his fistic operations to the prize ring. Once, speeding
to a fight in an automobile with a bevy of female adrnirers, four stickup
men blocked his road with a stalled car. Greb got out, unceremoniously
and with dispatch, flattened the quartet of would-be robbers and
continued on to keep his engagement. Cops picked up the unconscious
victims and Greb had enough left to score a two-round KO.

"Greb's real name was Berg. He changed it for 'business reasons.' "

In actual fact, there is no evidence that Greb ever engaged in a street or
barroom brawl. As Jimmy Slattery once wryly put it, "Who'd be crazy
enough to take on Greb in a street or alley, with no referee?"

And Greb's name was Greb. His father's first name was Pius, and
Harry's was Edward Henry.

Only one book about Greb has been written—by a man named James
Fair, who, as Keck's ringside telegrapher, covered many of Harry's
New York fights with him. He became enamored of Greb and wrote the
book, "Give Him to the Angels," in 90 days. It turned out to be a
chronicle of Greb's alleged sexual exploits, not a biography of a great
fighter. When Greb's family threatened suit, the book was withdrawn
from the market.

They said he couldn't punch, couldn't box. What, then did Harry Greb
have? Answer: he had blinding speed, a great rubbery pair of bouncy
legs, a tremendous fighting heart. He started his fights at a fast pace and
gradually accelerated it. None could keep up with him until he began to
taper off in his last year or so. He once told Keck, -"I can hit as hard as
any man my weight if I set myself to punch; but if I do that, I'll get hit in
return." So he beat 'em with speed and endurance.

Greb lost an eye in a fight with tough Kid Norfolk, who thumbed him.
That was in 1921—and Greb fought for five more years with only one
eye, beating most of the top fighters of his time. He never bewailed his
fate; few persons knew about it .

It has often been written that Greb died "under mysterious
circumstances." Poppycock. One doctor said he died as a result of what
we now call cardiac arrest; another said it was a cerebral hemmorhage
that carried him off. In any event, he died of natural causes.

Flaming courage in motion. Perpetual motion. That was Harry Greb.

"A real nice guy...and probably the greatest fighter who ever lived. "

That was Keck's epitaph for his friend.

Harry Clevelin, Boxing Illustrated August 1980

 

All the fighters you mention were heavyweights and were filmed because they were heavyweight champions or contenders. As a matter of fact, there are two surviving newsreel films of Greb: the training footage with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien and footage of Greb signing to fight Mickey Walker. So in actual fact, the footage we have of Greb in the 1920s is pretty consistent with what we have of other non-heavyweight fighters of the era. Other fights fought in the USA are kind of hit and miss. We have Delaney-Berlenbach, Berlenbach-Slattery, Loughran-Braddock & Walker, and maybe a few others, but hardly any in the divisions lower than light-heavy. Walker v. Milligan (existing only because the fight took place in Great Britain) and Walker-Hudkins (both filmed after Greb's death) are the only ones that come to mind except for a few preliminary fights on major cards filmed as an afterthought like Berlenbach-Ratner, McVey-Friedman, and Jimmy Delaney-Loughran.

To my mind, putting forth the existence of newsreels in the 30s and later has no relevance to this discussion. The proliferation of newsreels increased greatly after the 1920s.

 

Take it up with the Boxing Writers Association of America (which included Ring Magazine and Boxing Illustrated writers and editors) and its president.

I posted the videos from 1980. They (the Boxing Writers Association of America) didn't have Greb in the top 10 middleweights or top 10 light heavyweights all time.

I didn't make the video. And I didn't vote. It's not "my agenda." They didn't pick him.

I don't know why you're taking it out on me.

Greb didn't fight after that vote. Greb's record didn't change after that vote.

Nothing changed about Greb.

Just new people came in, who never saw Greb, and they - despite the same evidence the previous group had - now have him above everyone.

 

It must be remembered that in the training footage of Greb he was nearing retirement, he was blind in one eye & he was sparring a retired boxer like u said ATG Philadelphia Jack O'Brien.., who was in his mid 40s in this footage, so Greb wasn't trying to display his full ability & he was going easy.. Another thing to note is that they were filming for a newsreel, this meant they needed good angles on him. In the sparring, he was fighting one dimensionally to stay in shot, normally, (evident from many fight reports) he would be moving around his opponent, changing angles, but of course the film wouldn't capture him properly if he did that.