Harry Greb- Norfolk Fights

Sparring with someone capable of such fouls might not be wise for a champion training for a fight. But yeah, he was very good by all accounts.

 

bm,we must put the Greb/Norfolk fights in a proper perspective. Kid Norfolk weighed about 15 pounds MORE than Harry Greb, in both of their close bouts. Greb spotting a tough LH like Norfolk, is akin to Marvin Hagler, tackling a Mathew Sadd Franklin or Marvin Johnson...TOUGH to spot a Kid Norfolk 15lbs.,and do so well,speaks volumes about the amazing Pittsburgh Windmill...

 

First fight was close, with Greb having a shade the better. Yock Henniger was a fair and seasoned referee (and fighter). He said he would have given it to Harry. Norfolk had a lead after the first 5 rounds, after which Greb pretty much shut him out.

Norfolk had 17 1/2 pounds on Greb.

We'll wait for Klompton to weigh in on this one. He can give the finer details.

 

The first Greb-Norfolk fight was very close with newspaper reports split down the middle as two who deserved it. Greb was dropped early for a short count but got up and after the fourth or fifth round dominated Norfolk, wore him down, reopened an old cut over his eye, and by the finish had him backed into a corner taking punishment. Many felt in a 12 or 15 round fight Norfolk would have been dropped, lossed, and maybe even stopped. Yock Henniger the referee for the fight made the statement a day or two later that he would have voted for Greb had he been legally allowed. This caused a stir among people who stated it was tantamount to a referee issuing a decision. This was nonsense of course because many referees were newspapermen who rendered their decisions the following day in their columns in regards to fights they officiated in ND states. As someone stated Greb was outweighed in this bout by nearly 20 pounds and had initially been training for Frank Moran who was eliminated from facing Greb when he took a fight with Bob Martin and was knocked out.

In the second fight Greb came into the bout grossly out of shape at about 10 or 15 pounds over weight. He had tried to postpone the bout but was only able to buy himself about a week or so. He was at the height of his partying and was really not ready for a fighter of Norfolk's calibre. The fight itself was an ugly brawl. More wrestling and mauling than boxing. Norfolk was winning what actual fighting there was. Both fighters fought very dirty with ringsiders disagreeing who was the instigator. At the end of what would be the final round Greb turned to go to his corner and Norfolk hit him in the back of the head. Ringsiders disagree on whether it was accidental or flagrant. Greb flew into a rage thinking it was flagrant and attacked Norfolk setting off a riot in which paper and bottles were showered on the ring as it filled up with combatants. The police finally calmed things down and Greb was disqualified. Newspapers disagreed some saying Norfolk should have been DQd and others blaming Greb for touching off the riot.

In regards to Bman100's comments on the second Tunney fight: I have never heard Greb called "mean" by even his detractors during his day. It is true that he and Patsy Haley got into it in the corner during the fight but most of the newspaper articles agree that Haley was being ridiculously unreasonable, ignoring Tunney's own fouls, and basically belaboring Greb. Under those circumstances, and after having already been warned that he would not win under any circumstances, can anyone blame Greb for arguing with Haley? I think its far too much of an over simplification to say "Greb fought the third fight clean and lost thus he couldnt beat Tunney without fighting dirty". The idea that the only reason he beat Tunney was due to dirty tactics ignores the fourth fight they had, which was at worst a draw for Greb, and ignores the actual facts of the first and second fight in favor of the pro Tunney propaganda. To say Greb was "very good with fouls" is an insult to the man. He fought all over in a 13 year career encompassing 300 fights and was DQd once in a bout in which half the people there felt he shouldnt have been DQd. Dont you think with that many fights if he was that dirty he would have gotten DQd more often? It also ignores the testimony of people like William Muldoon among others who stood up for Greb saying he was not a dirty fighter. In fact the accounts in the newspapers of Greb being lauded for his sportsmanship during bouts i.e. unwilling to take unfair advantage of opponents, helping them up after slips, etc etc are legion as are the accounts from all over the country of his fights in which he is called "the cleanest boy who has ever appeared here". In reality the chief offense Greb was guilty of was holding and hitting and this came late in his career after he was blind in one eye and lost his depth perception.

Finally, Greb had agreed to face Tunney a SIXTH time in early 1926 in Miami but the bout never came off. So, no, Greb was willing to face Tunney again. In fact, even after Tunney won the heavyweight championship Greb expressed an interest in fighting him although this was likely not a serious offer as Greb had only recently had his eye replaced with a glass eye and was for all intents and purposes retired. He did however chafe at the sudden revision in regards to his bouts with Tunney, among even his admirers, once Tunney won the championship and wrote letters to the press correcting them on "mistakes" in regards to their shared history.

 

The more I've read about stuff like this from Tunney the less I respect him. The guy seems to have been a master of behind-the-scenes manipulations, pre and post-fight. All his pre-fight demands and post-fight(and post-mortem in regards to Greb) revisionism.

Like I've stated many times here, Tunney, the NY media darling, has one of the most carefully crafted careers in history. It sure appears that while guys like Greb were fighting anytime, anywhere and against anyone under any circumstances, Tunney was busy cherry picking opponents, making sure he had friendly refs and officiating and being careful that his hair wasn't going to get too mussed up.

Maybe I sound a tad bitter, but for me it is impossible not to give Greb miles more respect than Tunney.

 

I dont believe Tommy Loughran called Greb a foul fighter, he emphasised how fast Harry was and, how his endurance was all most superhuman.
The guy was a one of a kind, maybe the best p4p ever.
Thanks for filling in the gaps for us.

 

I concur. Thanks for the info, Steve:good

 

Tunney was absolutely a master of crafting his own image etc. He was very careful (almost to a fault early on) about who he fought etc. But what I was referring to above was how after Tunney won the championship suddenly everyone jumped on his bandwagon and even those who screamed that Greb was robbed against him suddenly started writing articles about him discussing how he had avenged his loss to Greb x amount of times etc. It wasnt really Tunney's doing (although he was complicit in that he certainly wasnt going to correct anyone) but that of the press who basically got all starry eyed over his victory. I think one can safely imagine Greb, now with one glass eye and secretly knowing he would never box again (despite the public having no idea about either) sitting back and watching Tunney bask in all this glory and you can see how if he was not bitter he was at least irritated by the sudden forgetfulness of those who had known all along that he had beaten Tunney fair and square on 2 or 3 occasions, and had chased Dempsey from one of the country to the other for 7 years while removing some of his most prominent challengers. You can see how he would be sensitive of his legacy.

The problem is that right at that exact moment in time, when Tunney was riding as high as he ever had been and Greb as low, Greb died and you can see history shift a bit. He never got the opportunity to tell his story himself. He never got to defend himself against the Dan Daniels, and ex New York press men who populated the magazines for the next 3 decades telling hair brained stories that grew from lies to facts to legends. Suddenly all of that became his legacy.

Theres really a warped sheen to Greb's story and life due to that. Even little things. Nowadays its repeated ad naseum that Greb and Tunney were great friends. They had a mutual respect for each others ability and thats about as far as their friendship went. People think that because Tunney was his pall bearer. Tunney just happened to be in Pitts. during Greb's funeral and it was thought it would be a nice gesture if his former opponent and current hw champion was an honorary pall bearer. Nothing more nothing less. In reality Greb's family never forgave Tunney for all of the lies and stories he told about Greb and Greb himself was very vocal during his life in shooting down everything Tunney said about him. This is just one example.

 

Greb could punch harder than he was given credit for but a couple of very significant factors contribute to his low KO %. 1. When he had a guy hurt he tended to get wild which would limit his effectiveness allowing the other guy to get off the hook. 2. (and most important) early on he went through a period where he broke his hands and wrists several times very close together which kept him inactive for long periods. After this he was reluctant to really open up for fear of hurting his hands and causing long delays which would prevent him from making money. There were a couple of different times later on when he tried to develop his style to bring in more power and it was successful until he suffered more broken bones and basically went back to what was working for him so well which was activity, speed, and workrate as opposed to power.

 

Picture Calzaghe bouncing around on rubbery legs, punching from all angles like Aaron Pryor and never getting tired. That about sums up Greb (though I'm sure we could point out many more differences between Joe and Harry).