Harry Greb vs. Jack Dempsey - Repercussions?

You know, that's what I have heard all my life. And I believe it was true most of the time.

But Dempsey himself says, "I wasn't much of a gym fighter." And Kearns agrees, saying he would have to feed him softies at times to get his confidence going before a fight. Reading between the lines, I think what can be deciphered is that he was inconsistent and at times did not apply himself in the gym. Of course when he was pissed, as when his dad picked Willard to beat him, he would slaughter the guys put in front him.

So that perhaps in the case of Greb he did not go all out and kept things polite. Or he was tired from banging showcalls till the break of day.

Sorry that was an incomplete comment earlier, just damned busy with house projects and work.

 

You assume an awful lot on my behalf,you do not know me or anything about my influences regarding boxing,but its pretty obvious your highest regard is for yourself
Ill make a guess on your behalf in return,my guess is, you wish you were a cat so you could lick yourself all over.You make a lot of statements but without proof it's just smoke and mirrorsWhich fights of Wilsosn's were crooked ,which decisions did Gibson buy for Tunney ,You purport to have the "inside info" I think your stories of fixes are stories inside your head.

 

Considering Wilson's bout with George Robinson in Montreal for one. Robinson was told that there gunmen at ringside and if he won hed be killed. Even coasting he knocked Wilson down but refused to follow up and Wilson had his handpicked ref with him just in case.

Another is the first bout with Bryan Downey in which Downey knocked Wilson out but Wilson own referee that he took to the fight called it a foul which prompted a split in the title. You show your ignorance on the subject by even asking a dumbass question like that. Wilson himself bragged about his mob connections and especially his long friendship with mob kingpin Frank Costello.

Mike O'Dowd argued till the day he died the first fight was fixed and that the second Wilson repeatedly fouled him and he even had to have surgery after the fight to repair damage suffered to his groin but Wilson's ref never called the fouls.

But hey, in your world fighters and their managers are as pure as the driven snow and no fights are ever suspect right?

 

BIG DEE HERE= Mcvie, financial terms didn`t have anything to do with Harry not training Dempsey. Harry didn`t do it for two reasons No.1 Greb was
believe it not good friends with Gene Tunney by that time. No.2 Greb said
that it didn`t matter what he did with Dempsey as he could never have gotten him in shape enough to beat Gene. I would be stealing Dempsey`s money! ( Greb`s exact words ). FOR TWO GUY`S THAT FOUGHT FIVE VICIOUS WARS IN THE RING THEY HAD THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR ONE ANOTHER. GENE TUNNEY WAS LEAD PALLBEARER AT HARRY`S FUNERAL

 

One reason was financial the other was ,as he told Dempsey "I want to fight you myself".Dempsey offere Greb 8,000$ to train him Greb asked for 10,000$.Dempsey and Greb sparred in 1920 when Dempsey was training for the Miske fight

 

Johnny Wilson and Frank Costello were next door neighbours as children and went to school together Costello was around four five years older ,thats where the connection came from..Costello took Wilson to Vincent Morello who had cornered the market in Artichokes and was known as the "Artichoke King,"Morello became Wilson's manager..Morello sold Wilson' contract to John The Barber ,who had a Barber shop on 45th street and Broadway,and Sam Golden.Wilson got his title shot against O Dowd,Wilson dropped O Dowd in the 2nd for a 9 count.The Referee was Hector McGuiness,he was close friends with Paddy Mullins, ODowds manager ,Mullins insisted on McGuiness or no fight.You have it arse backwards .Wilson's share of the fight was3200$.The return was on St Patricks Day,.Wilson thrashed O Dowd ,who wanted to quit
after the 12th rd,but Mullins pushed him out. Wilson received 52000$ for that fight.In the first fight with Downey, Downey hit Wilson after the break and floored him,he then hit Wilson while he was on the floor ,and the referee dsqd him.Wilson won the NWS dec over Downey in the return,Both fights were in Boyles 30 Acres.Of course you knew there was a last minute switch int the referee he judges when Wilson defended his title against Greb.Like you know that the referee Jack O Sullivan was a very close friend of Paddy Mullins manager of O Dowd, whom Wilson had taken the title off.
I never assumed boxing was allways straight or that some fights weren't fixed,where you get your opinion of people from is a mystery.I just don't make sweeping statements without positive proof.Wilson was friendly with Al Capone ,so was Dempsey and the Mayor of New York ,does that make them gangsters. Marciano had more than a nodding acqaintance with Frankie Carbo,like wise his manager Al Weill, was Marciano crooked?

 

I like a prime Dempsey over a very tough, fast paced fifteen round decision ...

http://www.harrygreb.com/homepagewithframeset.html see photo section, Dempsey

as far as it's a fact because it was said in print, please ... because something is in print does not mean it is a fact ...

 

Your wrong again McVey and I dont know why you keep spouting **** when you know you dont know what your talking about. Wilson and Costello were friends their whole lives not just in school. Costello was two years older (I have "In this Corner" as well, which is where you are regurgitating all of your stories from for those joining us. So basically McVey here is telling us Wilson's convoluted side of the story which mostly fairytale at best.) In fact Wilson and Costello were briefly in business together. And since you are quoting from Wilson why do you leave out the part where he says Costello set him up with his first manager, or might that seem a little too chummy, like maybe the mob has an interest in Wilson. Might hurt your argument huh? Why dont you also mention that Vincent Morello, the so called artichoke king was a founding member of the MORELLO CRIME FAMILY!!! Might hurt your argument too. Reisler sold his contract to Martin Killelea before he left resettled in Tulsa long before Wilson got close to the title (and John the Barber wasnt exactly the purest individual either). Martin Killelea was Wilson's manager when he got the title shot against ODowd. Killelea was a former baseball player who was a front man for the mob. The ref was asked for by Mullins and was alleged to have been a friend of Mullins but I ask you, who has more leverage and boxing manager with little or no pull (which Mullins certainly was) or mob connected fighter? In the rematch Wilson repeatedly fouled ODowd and as stated below ODowd was forced to undergo surgery to his groin after the match due to the repeated low blows none of which were called. And give me a break, ODowd wanted to quit? Your talking about a guy who wasnt stopped until the last fight of his career when he was suffering neurological damage and simply couldnt keep his balance. Oh, and that was a split decision by the way or did you not know that? Another fact is that the ref was handpicked by Wilson, being Johnny McAvoy who was well known for protecting the fighter that paid him the most, for years he travelled around with cheese champ Al McCoy making sure McCoy got favorable treatment. Have you read any of the ringside reports of the Downey-Wilson fight? Wilson was knocked out. Period. His own handpicked ref saved the fight for him. The Cleveland Commission had no reason to favor Downey, Downey wasnt from their town and had only fought there a handful of times in a fairly active career. In the rematch the decision of the newspapermen was split (notice I say newspapermen because Wilson would only fight Downey in a state where decisions could not be rendered. In fact several papers neglected to say who won and stated simply that fans lost because Wilson fought only to not get knocked out and refused to give his best. I find Wilson's use of a handpicked referee funny coming from a guy who is quoted in your bible "In This Corner" as saying "I never did consider the referee important. Just a man in there doing his job." HAHAHA Thats funny coming from Wilson. Heres a little more background on that fight you probably dont know. Afterwards Wilsons purse of 35000 was held up by Tex Rickard for his **** poor showing (he was a cheese champ after all). The only way Wilson could get his money was by fighting Harry Greb, his logical contender. Wilson knew if he fought Greb his title would be history. He walked into Rickards office, signed the contract (which I have a copy of to prove it) collected his check, walked out, and promptly tore his contract up refusing to face Greb. Now that happened in 1921. Tell me, since you are such an encyclopedia of knowledge when did Wilson finally defend his title against Greb? Ill answer that since youve shown a gross lack knowledge. August of 1923. Here is some more information for you since you probably dont know this either: Wilson was banned by the NYSAC for refusing to face Greb until 1923. By 1923 Greb had been fighting predominantly in the 175 pound and heavyweight class. Wilson and his new manager Frankie Marlowe (a notorious gambler and gangster who was associated closely with Frank Costello and Frankie Yale) didnt believe that Greb could make the weight limit. They then finally agreed to face Greb and Wilson was promptly reinstated as champion. Well, Greb fooled them, he made the weight easily and promptly kicked Wilson's ass. It was on that night that he was approached to throw the fight and refused. You can talk about purses all you want but Greb didnt recieve a dime for fighting Wilson, a guy hed been chasing for YEARS so dont give me all that bull****. I find it funny that you insinuate something about the referee of the Greb-Wilson fight. There was no switch at last minute as you say. The referee was not announced as was common before a fight in NY at that time until just before the fight. So let me pose this question since you seem to insinuate, do you think Greb was somehow connected and recieved more than favorable treatment in his fight with Wilson? Do you think, contrary to every report Ive read and Ive read them all from Boston to Pittsburgh to New York to Newark to Philadelphia and beyond, that Wilson somehow deserved the decision or could have even defeated Greb??? Come on, I know your having a great time showing your ignorance of the subject but I dont know anyone who thinks Wilson ever had a snowballs chance in hell of defeating Greb in a fair fight INCLUDING WILSON!!! Wilson was such a liar, he says that the judges for the fight were stooges of Paddy Mullins. Bull****. Mullins had nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with that fight. Wilson then lists Bat Masterson as one of the judges. Masterson died in 1921, nuff said. He said O'Sullivan picked him, which would make it a split decision. It wasnt. It was a unanimous decision with no controversy, Greb was the clear winner. It wasn't the ref that he alleged they slipped in at short notice (they didnt), it was the judges, so if your going to cherry pick your information from a flawed source at least get the flawes right and dont screw those up worse than they already are. If you need more education keep spouting off about **** you obviously dont know about...

 

My punctuation was off on the referee if you look closely you can see I said the judges NOT the referee was switched.I never said Wilson would have beaten Greb,nor have I ever read it.Wilson was clearly inferior to Greb as a fighter ,but then just about every middleweight was.I never said or implied it was a split decision .I never said Greb was given a biased decision.I said that Costello took Wilson to his first manager I did not leave it out.I knew Killea was Wilson's manager at the time of the ODowd fight but for brevity's sake left it out ,does it change anything?Let' s be clear you don't like me, and I think you are a pompous condescending p***k who is up his own arse.
But this hasn't much to do with this thread has it? End of.

 

Not taking sides here but I've known klompton through boxing boards for years and his knowledge of Greb is , to me , unsurpassed ... no need to get testy guys ...

 

The point of your post is lost if you werent insinuating that Greb somehow recieved favorable treatment and that Wilson was in some fairytale land not mob connected. In fact Wilson may have been the most mob connected fighter of the first quarter of the 20th century given that all but one of his managers were either out an out mobsters or puppets of the mob. Morello was a mob leader and so was Frankie Marlowe, as was close associate Costello. My point was that Wilson was a mob connected fighter whose reign was extended by several years because of this and not just through his avoidance of Greb. And let me be clear, I dont think Wilson was a bad fighter. He wasnt. He was a terrific body puncher but he was also limited. He was a clubfighter and there were guys who would have taken his title given the opportunity and you could argue that some who were given the opportunity should have. Its symantics whether you meant the judges or the ref were switched at the last minute in the Greb fight. They werent, that was Wilson's story and Wilson himself didnt even get it right stating that Bat Masterson who had been dead two years was one of the judges. The point was that the ref and judges werent announced by the commission until right before the fight so there was no one to switch, they picked the officials from a pool of licensed officials so Wilson's story doesnt hold water.

 

I have no problem conceding Klompton 's knowledge of Greb is more thorough than mine,he seems to have extensively studied the news reports of the time,and obviously has a great deal of background info on his subject.I have made tons of posts on this site ,but you won't find one where I describe myself as an Expert,Historian ,or Archivist,I am a fan,that's all.I would hazard a guess that the majority of posters on this site have more knowledge of boxing than myself so conceding my first point isn't difficult.It's the way Klompton presents his facts rankles me ,its as though the have come down from Mount Sinai in the form of tablets of stone,that said ,I was out of order with my personal remarks.I will apologise to him for them .

 

My apologies for my over the top, personal remarks,they were uncalled for,and I withdraw them.I also would like to acknowledge,you have the" inside track" on the subject of Harry Greb,and also this "one on one argument". Peace.

 

I'm not arguing with you McVey ... I think you conduct yourself here with class .

 

James R. Fair's book on Greb (Give him to the Angels) claims the following: [Dempsey] and Greb were matched by' [sic] Charley Murray of Buffalo, but the match was called off and Greb sort of blamed the old Mauler. Dempsey is noted for his long memory of faces and I seem to recall being with Greb when they met one day. "Hey, bum," he said roguishly," when you gonna fight me?"

Fair doesn't mention when this hapened though, and I noticed someone bagging on his book in another thread recently, so I'm not sure that this is 100% reliable. Anyone know anything more?