Harry Greb vs. Jack Johnson

There's not a lot on film of Greb, only warming up with some punches, but there are plenty of newspaper accounts, firsthand testimonies of ring professionals, and a lengthy, consistent record of excellence against many, many fighters who were filmed... and 16 who were Hall of Famers.

 

From what I've seen on film, Johnson absolutely toys with smaller middleweight-sized fighters.

 

He was 208lbs for Jefffries ,and he said that was the best shape he was ever in.
I don't doubt Greb could make Jack look bad ,I think anyone with his singular ability would have their moments against even top tier heavyweights,and as you are not an admirer of Johnson, I can quite see your view point.
What I cannot see is Harry actually beating Jack.I am presuming both are in their best shape. A fit Johnson threw a 170lbs Ketchel about like a rag doll grabbing him and setting him back on his feet when he inadvertedly stunned him , It looks like a Father playing with his son on film.
Before you say Ketchel dropped Jack, may I say I have my doubts about the legitimacy of that kd, and add that Greb did not possess anywhere near Stanley's firepower.
You put up pictures of three of Johnson's opponents which were taken when they were young callow kids. Choynski for example was not much lighter than Johnson when they fought,its likely both were inside the light heavyweight limit.
Johnson certainly did not cover himself in glory when he fought O Brien to a no dec ,but Jack was not in shape,and reports say he manhandled the reigning light heavyweight champion.

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O Brien



The picture you put up of Marvin Hart is not representative of the 190lbs Hart who fought Johnson , you know it,I know it, and so does everyone else

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Hart
Using the Johnson that fought Choynski for the purposes of forming an opinion, is as disingenuous as me citing the Greb who held on for dear life against Chip in 1916 only to lose a lop sided decision,or the Greb who was comprehensively out boxed by 5-0-0 Tommy Gibbons in 1915,we both know neither fighter was prime so why try to bamboozle us ? Is your opinion of us so low?

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Choynski
You aint foolin no one Bud.:nono

 

1909 Johnson KO's 1922 Greb like a rag doll inside 6 rds if the match is classified as a fight and not some bullspit exhibition.... Johnson wins either way, but it would depend on how soon Jack wants to go home... He might carry Greb for a while to pound on his white ass.... Who knows?

MR.BILL:bbb

 

So, Johnson was in his prime for exactly one fight. What are the odds he would coming "primed" for Greb... 1 in 70? Greb fought 45 times in 1919, won them all, beat heavies along the way. I would say he was pretty regularly primed. My point is in any given fight Johnson can not be relied on to come in focussed or in top shape.

If Johnson can consistently catch Greb like he did Ketchell, and it became a wrestling match... AND if the ref allowed such shenanigans, then it's bad news for Greb. However, my impression of Greb from accounts is that he was not a direct in and out seek and destroy type guy like Ketchell. He seemed shiftier and coming from all angles. He might be a bit harder to catch than Ketchell, and Jack is sure as **** gotta avoid more punches than the one swing for the fences that Ketchell threw..[/QUOTE]

Actually, Hart is 26 years old in the picture of him in his diaper. He looks actually looks better than the soft looking fellow in the picture you posted.

O'Brien was not even 170 pounds for the Johnson fight. Putting your fists under your biceps to inflate them is not original.

 

No he isn't quite a few writers of the time considered Ketchell the better MW. Greb is unproven against men of Johnson's size, especially as he said a 180lb Tunney had become too big and strong for him and arguably unproven against men of Johnson's class.

Not near his prime he didn't

The Hart fight is generally considered a robbery, I believe the terms for the fight with 'Johnson has to KO him or completely dominate or he loses'

 

Johnson's size keeps being brought into the equation as if it would be some insurmountable obstacle to Greb. In fact on average it was a HANDICAP to be bigger when in a fight with Harry, as his record against bigger men clearly shows. He had a much easier time with the big boys than the small ones. True, he never fought as great a heavy as Jack Johnson. But it is more fair to say that it is Johnson who never fought anyone even remotely like Greb, most of his opposition being non-movers who freely engaged him. Greb would be bouncing all around him.

 

Why is it impossible for Greb to KO Johnson? He got stopped in his career.

 

I dont think those piccture really do Johnson's size justice.

btw Greb has one of meanest rock solid faces ive ever seen

 

Mike Gibbons less talented brother,Tommy comprehensively out pointed Greb in 1915 Greb was a veteran ,Gibbons had just 8 contests.

This is a prime example of why you dont just go by records. Greb had more fights but certainly wasnt a veteran and wasnt anywhere near as polished as Gibbons. Gibbons had less fights but consider that he was trained by and served as chief sparring partner to Mike Gibbons who at the time was the greatest, most clever fighter in the world. That was a huge advantage over a guy who was basically self taught.



To ask Greb said that Tunney became too big and strong for him to handle ,was Tunney anywhere near as big and strong as Johnson? No.

Two things: 1. You are comparing a far past his prime Greb vs a prime Johnson. Not what is at the heart of the thread. 2. Greb still wasnt done with Tunney after their last fight in St. Paul, so the quote that he stated Tunney had outgrown him can be taken with a grain of salt. He signed to fight Tunney in Miami in 1926 but the fight never came off.

In 1920 Tommy Gibbons , 17-0-1 gave 44 fight Harry Greb," the licking of his life", according to reports, yet Greb is going to outpoint Jack Johnson? No.

Again, you are comparing an overconfident, out of shape Greb (and I think you have their records wrong) with a prime Johnson. Why not compare the Greb of 1919 or even the one of a few months later who trained like a demon, got into great shape, and beat Gibbons?

My only thought on this is that its a tough call IMO. Johnson had a style that is going to be very hard for a smaller guy to beat from any era. Its why I think he would have given Langford problems and probably would have beaten him had they actually fought for a title. That being said I could also see Greb on his best night piling up points on a Johnson who lays back and does just enough (which he was known to do and we have plenty of film evidence) to steal a decision. Either way its a tough fight.