Harry Greb vs. Jack Johnson

I think Johnson would beat him up. I haven't seen Greb fight, mind you.
But Johnson was a solid 200 - 210 pound 6'1 heavyweight of great skill and strength, and for all Greb's famed whirlwind style and speed, he has to contend with Johnson's huge arms and smothering ability.
Greb apparently liked to hold and hit - imagine a 5'8 and 165 pound man trying to outdo Johnson with such tactics.

Jack Johnson gets underrated around here.

 

Come on, I like the fantasy fight debates as much as the next guy but basing how well a guy would do based on what his record looks like and a few newspaper articles is a bit of a stretch if you're going to be so serious and eilitist about it.

I've read the Greb books, I've seen many of the articles but my view of what he fought like is 99% my own perception of someone's perception. As is yours and anyone who talks about Greb.

If it were a Tyson/Ali debate and I said I'd never seen Tyson fight but read that he hit really hard so I think he'd beat Ali would anyone really take it seriously?

Based on what can be said of Greb, it sure seems like he accomplished a lot more and beat alot more quality fighters than Johnson ever did, even holding his own or according to some sources, getting the better of Jack Dempsey in exhibitions. Jack Johnson got knocked out by a cattle farmer who Dempsey beat silly just a few years later.

 

Agreed !

 

Good post.:good

In a short bout (4-8 rounds) I don't think it's delusional to suggest that Greb has a good chance of outpointing Johnson. His speed, mobility evasiveness, punch output, iron chin and limitless stamina would make it very possible. But anything beyond that I think that Johnson is going to slow Harry down in increments and stop him.

 

I based my invitation for you to go back to the Lounge on your remark about Johnson being kod by Bear Cat Wright omitting the fact that he was 53 years old .What Greb accomplished is besides the point ,he may very well be the paramount p4p fighter of all time.We are judging whether a prime Greb would beat a prime Jack Johnson ,[which for me would,be 1910 in Reno].Not whether he would beat a 37 years old Johnson who was past it.and undertrained and 10lbs over weight.Personally I think even that Johnson would give Greb hell over the first 15rds.
We are serious here ,but not elitist ,except when vacuous comments are made.

The Willard who fought Dempsey had been out of the ring for 3 years .How about judging them in their prime?
You've read the Greb books ,have you ? How many are there?

 

I guess the distance here is absolutely crucial.

As you say Greb could very well keep flitting in and out for 4-6 rounds,[ I'd make that the max],and steal a points dec,he may have done the same to Dempsey,but as Jack Delaney remarked ,watching Greb fluster and annoy Dempsey in sparring ,"you can't do it forever ,without running into something big."

Johnson liked to box at a leisurely pace,Tunney and Loughran both said the secret of handling Greb was to get off first Tunney did it with short smashes to the heart and midriff as Greb came in ,Loughran by spearing him with his peerless jab.
Jack's best chance would be to try and nail Harry with that right uppercut,6 rounds might not give him enough time to make his size tell. I don't give Greb a chance over 15 rds if I am honest, I do think he would **** Johnson off enough for him to get down to business earlier than usual.,even light punches hurt if you ship enough of them.

Sorry if I was brusque earlier, your posts are allways worth reading, my apologies, it's just some of the responses to this thread have been fatuously irrelevant,to the purpose of the thread , which is determining ,who wins prime for prime?

 

Joohnson fought Griffin 3 times , he lost the first on points over 20rds, drew the second over 15 rds ,and drew the third over 20 rds, no quitting whatevever " he felt like" , just another silly slur.
Johnson was far from prime when he fought Choynski ,who was a big puncher, Greb was not.

You note that "Johnson was never viewed as an aggressive puncher who took his opponents out early",yet in all your earlier threads you criticize him for not koing opponents?:huh
Moving the gaol posts again?atsch

The O Brien fight was 6 rounds no decision Johnson came in the ring untrained ,it is reported he was out drinking the night before.Knowing he could not lose by ko ,and no decision would be rendered he went through the motions. How about picking the Johnson of Reno against a prime Greb?
Level playing field.

 

How Johnson compares in hand speed is something we cannot be sure about ,the overwhelming consensus would give the nod to Harry ,what we do know is that Johnson was fast ,certainly faster than Ketchel ,which is proven if we watch their fight.
Ted Kid Lewis sparred with Johnson and couldn't lay a glove on him. Since Lewis fought in a similar style to Greb [from what we can gather]ie ,all action and aggression ,I take this as a pointer that Jack could handle speed.
Up to 6 rds Greb might steal a dec ,and make Jack look rather plodding ,anything over that, and he is the little boy , on the river bank , trying to snatch a salmon from a grizzly's mouth, sooner of later he gets bit.

 

I pick the Johnson that fought the ND with O Brien to get the same result against Greb, and thus retain his title.

I really cant see how Greb could possibly hope to beat Johnson. It is unlikely that he has the punchers chance that Ketchel had, and i would have thought it very unlikely that the in and out high workrate style, could not be achieved against Johnson. As fast and good as he was, i dont see how his style could be successful against Johnson. My imagining of Greb is that he tends to punch a little rounded (i could be wrong) and i would have thought (admittedly based on only the limited play footage which really means nothing) that his style also leaves him open to the uppercuts of Johnson, which no one did better. Plus with Johnson holding in close, like he did burns and jeffries, i just dont see how the smaller and not as strong Greb has any chance to keep landing on johnson. He cant move in and out from different angles like he could against Tunney, because Johnson will grab him in close, and from there he can manhandle him how he likes, and hit him at will, without taking any serious leather from Greb. Stylistically, i can only really imagine Jeffries as a worst matchup, and even that is debateable.

Harrys best option if for a 10 round no Clinching fight, which would at least give him a must better chance. I dont think it would help him too much, but it would give him at least a decent fighting chance. I would like to see if Klompton or one of Grebs other fans have a different take, but i really just cant see any different result.

And by the way, just because Johnson didnt KO many early, doesnt mean he didnt hurt many early. I think that he lands hard and early and has the fight one before the first two or three rounds (much like Burns). He probably Carries him/fights cautiously for much longer, but an early KO wouldnt surprise me in the slightest.

 

McVey,

would the speed advantage be consensus by most who saw Johnson and Greb? I am not really sure. (Not questioning you, just wondering whether it would be the case). Or is it just a case of assuming a middleweight is faster than a heavy?

 

Bartfield won the newspaper decision according to both the Buffalo Boxing Record and the Pittsburgh Post. According to the Post, it was a stormy, rough battle. Greb overpowered his man in the clinches and forced Bartfield to the ropes. "But he could not even up the soldier's wonderful early round battling and hard hitting." Bartfield stood and punched back when Greb attacked. Evidently Greb did not have the advantage of quickness and speed that he usually enjoyed. It was a close battle and opinions were somewhat divided. Dan McKetrick, Bartfield's manager, rushed to Western Union and sent out a phony report that Bartfield had won every round!

 

I should think the latter B, wouldn't you?

How much clinching is allowed ,and the distance of the fight are crucial too I think.
Johnson threw Ketchel and O Brien around like dolls,and claimed Jeffries in a vice.

Back to the speed issue.
Of course you get slow middles, and fast heavies,from what we have read of Greb he was blazingly fast ,but was that both his hand, and foot speed or one or the other? Klompton should probably come in here somewhere, and give us his input.

 

I assume the same as you, but i am not sure. Greb is definitely hard to get a handle on, for obvious reasons.

It is only a hunch, but my guess is that Grebs fantastic stamina and workrate makes him look much faster than he actually was. I am sure he was blindingly fast, but i dont think he stood out among his piers as say a Muhammed Alis speed did, or a Roy Jones Jr or even a Mike tyson.

That is an interesting comment that powerpuncher made in that Greb was meeting someone as quick or quicker than him. I am not so sure that Jones Jr, Tyson or ali (well some do say patterson) have met with the same problem. I do think though that in an era with Plenty of speedsters Greb might have been top of the class or close to it, but he was in the same class as many others.

 

I enjoy your posts and comments as well. No worries and no apologies necessary amigo. :thumbsup

 

Well, facts are facts. I suggest you embrace them and stop acting like a crybaby.:crybby

Or you can dispute the ring results, and reply back. Greb has a chance here.