Harry Greb vs. Jack Johnson

Both Loughran and Tunney said it was the pace Greb set ,and then, not only maintained ,but accelerated that was so hard to handle.
Loughran said he had freakish powers of endurance.
Just how that translates into his hand speed is a moot point ,one I do not feel qualified to comment on ,as I said Klompton is the man on this subject.
A point to note ,both Loughran and Tunney were quickish of hand ,and foot, but considerably more orthodox in their stances and approach.
I see trying to tee off on Greb as being like trying to hit the top of a beer bottle bobbing up and down in a storm ,with an air rifle.

 

Who was Joohnson? " What ever " you think, Mcvey I have read Griffin's opinion of the fight he won. He flat out says he knocked Johnson's teeth out late in the fight, and felt like Johnson shows signs of wanting to quit. So you are wrong again.

Also did you not read Gunboat's Smith's quote from " In this Corner " when Johnson said I'll quit before I'll take a beating "

If you want to read Griffin's opinion of Johnson, he is quoted below leading up to the 1910 Jeffries fight:

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=y7NSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WjcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3401,231356&dq=hank+griffin+knocked+jack+johnson's+teeth&hl=en[/url]

 

Greb has a outside chance over 6 rds max imo.After that he gets damaged badly.That is if we are comparing them prime for prime.
Johnson focused, and pissed off was a mean ****er, he dropped Burns immediately with a right uppercut, that Burns did not even see. Burns was fast afoot ,and carried a wallop he ended up beaten stupid, handled like a baby with his jaw swollen to twice its size.
Burns would give Greb a very interesting night work, imo.

 

Damaged badly after 6? Not likely. Johnson wasn't very aggressive. Greb takes a great punch, and is far harder to hit than say Ketchel who floored Johnson. I would not ask you to understand the concept of how styles and tendencies can make fights, but to win here Johnson is the one who is going to have to change things up.

As I pointed out, Johnson has trouble with fast moving boxers in Choynski and O'Brien. I think Greb is more durable than those two guys by a country mile.

Tunney was more active on film than Johnson was, and hit about as hard as Johnson did. Maybe Johnson's hardest singular shot is a little harder than Tunney's. My point here is Tunney did not stop Greb in five fights!!! And three of those matches were 15 rounds. So to me this fantasy match up will come down to points. Do you go for the more active guy, or the guy who lands fewer punches, but more telling blows. I know Greb won't " coast " like Johnson sometimes did in the ring.

 

The accounts by Jack Londan from the Burns bout and the coverage of the Jeffries fight praise Johnson's hand speed .. he does look much faster than Ketchel and like Hector Camacho v.s. Jeffries ..

 

Because Greb arguably has a deeper resume to back his competitiveness in this match-up than Johnson has in reverse. The former beat many Hall of Fame fighters, many over his own weight and during a sustained prime that had almost a spotless record, rarely equalled in the history of the sport. The latter had a prime as a heavyweight that no one seems willing to pinpoint, was it against a depleted Jeffies, did it occur over multiple fights or on that single encounter? Greb, we know, had a prime that was that was over many dozens of fights where he consistently fought at a high degree. The supposition that "a prime 200+ pound Johnson" arrives to any fight is a bit of a stretch. I am not sure how many times that actually ever occurred or if it ever occurred against great opposition.

The point worth still debating here is the absoluteness of the result. Those arguing Johnson's victory with certitude are merely revealing their lack of knowledge of Greb's career and their wholesale purchase of the Johnson myth. I am not concerned how the fighters look in a still picture, not how they flex their muscles or taunt their opponents not their status as icons and the mythmaking of a century... but the results contained within their respective resumes.

I would pick Johnson, but would not put a dime on it.

 

I'm willing to pinpoint it .I pick the Johnson of Reno 1910, to give Harry Greb a ****ing good hiding .
1923 Greb lost to175lbs Tunney ,Greb was 30
1924 Greb drew with 168 lbs Loughran, Greb was 31
1925 Greb lost to 181lbs Tunney
1926 lbs Greb lost to 158lbs Flowers
Pick which Greb you want, put him in with the Johnson of 1910 Reno,15rds, I say he gets badly mutilated .Unless Jack carries him.
I pick Johnson, and over 15rds ,or further I would put my houses on it.

 

Against world class heavyweights?

 

You are very gracious :good

 

Oh dearie me, you have caught me out in a typographical error! I bet you wet yourself.

Yeah, Johnson must have been intimidated by Griffin,that's why he went back in the ring with him twice more.
Bottom line,did Johnson quit in ANY of the THREE fights with Griffin?
Answer NO.
Johnson went 26 rds with a giant in tropical heat at the age of 37 his courage is beyond question .
Your's is too ,come to think of it.

 

That's about where I would have it, too. No chance of a KO, or winning a fight to the finish, but a chance to take a decision in something 15 rounds or less, though I might say 35-40%.

 

And more should be made about what Jack did to Burns, who was at his absolute peak at age 27, a heavyweight champion with a Queensbury record 11 successful title defenses, who nobody else would stop until Beckett retired him when he was 39.

1919 Greb would literally have to somehow escape Jack's clutches, because once Johnson trapped him in a clinch and started ripping uppercuts, the toll could start to tell on Harry rapidly. We know what Lil' Artha' could do to a peak great the stature of Greb, because he did it on film to Ketchel and Burns, who both carried far more firepower than the Windmill.

 

Against Burns, Ketchel or Jeffries will do. :good
That Johnson would beat Greb, IMO.

So why do you often post pics of skinny pasty white guys who Johnson had trouble with to make a point ?
:huh

 

In this particular case, it was argued that Johnson's immense size was what Greb would never overcome. And actually Johnson, despite pictures shown, was of fairly average heavyweight stature with a short reach. I merely wanted to illustrate that there were times he struggled against smaller opposition.

In regards to your "prime Johnson" bouts, Burns is decent pelt but was only 167 or so or that fight, Ketchell was either a carry-match or he got flattened by Stanley or both, and Jeffries was a wornout old re-tread of a guy who, himself, went life and death with lightheavies. I don't know if we ever saw a prime HEAVYWEIGHT Johnson in action against a great opponent. His renowned fights against McVea, Jeanette and Langford seemed to have occurred whilst he was in his 180-190 range.

 

Fair enough.
I tend to believe Johnson was a very strong 200 pound man. Sure, maybe his reach was relatively short. But that doesn't matter too much in this case.

The state of his opposition isn't too relevant to me. Johnson toyed with those guys quite a bit - or it appears that way on the film to me, anyway.
And he was in superb shape himself.
Their inadequacies don't detract from his prime form - but, yes, I suppose there are question marks.