Harry Greb vs. Jack Johnson

I'm not picking the blind in one eye Greb to do the best against Johnson, rather Greb at his peak, in 1919, when Dempsey refused to fight him, when Greb beat Jack Dillon, Gunboat Smith, Battling Levinsky (several times), Billy Miske (several times), Bill Brennan (several times), Leo Houck, Fat Willie Meehan and Mike McTigue.

Again, I'll go with Johnson. But his is no sure thing, no walk in the park and no shut out.

 

I call this bull****,Seamus,you picked the worst three pictures you could find a 170lbs Hart,a lightweight O Brien,and an early Choynski, .Come on don't insult us here.

If you look at prime photos of Johnson and compare them to his contemporaries he is obviously above average in stature he is more developed in musculature with big shoulders ,powerful biceps, and forearms.

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He matches up favourably with the man considered the last word in size and power for his times , below.

They called him the Galveston Giant for a reason.

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You make errors all the time. " Joohnson " was one of my favorites. It ranks right up there with your inability to form paragraphs, and space between lines. No comment on Griffin saying he felt Johnson wanted to quit when he knocked his teeth out? Put you in your place once again, I have.

Back to boxing...Willard was 34, hardly a spring chicken himself when he fought Johnson. Tropical heat in April? The temperature in Cuba never got as hot as reported in some books. If you saw the documentary Unforgeable Blackness, the referee felt Johnson could have gotten up, but as a business man he it was over, and elected to stay down. Then of course, Johnson gives us a bogus story for a fix! Not exactly a courageous way to go out on your shield, but well within character of Johnson's actions in the ring. Johnson did in fact quit in a fight before Willard, and after Willard.

 

You giving anyone lessons on the English language would be like Adolph Hitler joining the Samaritans.

It's the humidity, stupid
The temperature is variously described as between 100 and 104 degrees.

"It was hotter than hell in there, if Johnson did lay down ,I wished he'd done it sooner ." Jess Willard

Immediately after the fight ,Johnson commended Willard for his victory,congratulated him and said," I have no kick coming he won fair and square".

Rather more gracious in defeat than your hero Jeffries I think.

Johnson had swallowed a couple of his gold teeth ,when a left hook from Willard dislodged them.

Johnson signed a confession years later claiming he took a dive.
Jack was broke and needed dough .

Nat Fleischer bought it for $250, but never published it as he did not believe it,neither do I.


I have never seen a post by you, which did not contain multiple errors .

This one has four ,about par for the course,I've seen four year olds with better grammar.

You are a sad, hating nobody, and everyone thinks you're the forum's joke.

I must send you some of the PM's I get about you.

They really are comical.

Show the quote from Griffin.It would mean nothing anyway, because Johnson never quit in 55rds against him.

Unlike your hero Vitali.who quit when he was in front, and in his prime.

 

Pick which Greb you like,after 6rds he is dead meat.
In 1919 Greb scaled between 160/165lbs,good luck.

 

I do think it is an interesting fight and that Johnson is an interesting character to handicap based on so many arrogance based off performances but if we are picking the best v.s. the best I see a 1908 Johnson as simply too big and too good. Unlike a Dempsey who also had tremendous physical skills, Johnson was a very smart fighter. I don't see him losing his head, I see him being better able to control the pace with straight, fast outside shots and chopping Harry up with his brutal uppercuts .. to me he was better than Tunney and in a similiar manner would beat Harry up .. I can even see a Jones/Paz ending ...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS1rUHK30as[/ame]

 

Good stoppage.
Of course Johnson would not have that tremendous speed advantage over Harry , but Jack's hands were not slow, he jabbed Ketchel as ,and when he wanted to.
Realistically Greb has a very outside chance to take a 6rd dec from Johnson,and I mean very outside.

Both focused, and prime, over a longer distance Harry gets his head handed to him imo.
Greb just maybe the greatest p4p of all time .I am not tearing him down ,but this is a bridge too far.imo.

 

You, who have never boxed competitively , are telling me who has?

Tunney fought Greb 5 times the most he out weighed him was ,in 1925, 13 1/2lbs .This is the report of the fight

Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling varied only by rare flashes of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating attack. Tunney concentrated his fire almost entirely on Greb's heart and body, landing with deadly accuracy and telling effect. After a flashy start, Greb went on the defensive and let entire rounds go by without making more than a weak show of attack, without landing a decisive punch, even on those rare occasions when he undertook to do the leading." (Associated Press)



Greb was probably at his best in 1919 when he had a banner year, at the time he fluctuated between 160lbs ,and 167lbs, he would be conceding 41lbs to Johnson.

This photo was taken in 1901 when Johnson was 23 and scaling UNDER 190lbs.
Have a think what he was like in 1910, when he weighed 208lbs, with no surplus on him at all.

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http://www.smithsonianmag.com/multimedia/videos/The-Johnson-Jeffries-Fight.html

 

And if you believe the fact that Johnson was stopped at the age of 53 ,is germane to this discussion.:-(

 

Despite all the drooling mancrush photos, this is still the weight an inferior fighter in Jack O'Brien weighed, who had success versus Johnson.

The fact you were picking a mid-20's Greb as the competition makes me suspect you have not brushed up on your Greb studies, which you really ought to do. His resume is mind-boggling, especially that 1918-1919 run.

My main point is that Johnson, at his high water mark, was inconsistent. He didn't show up at times, plain and simple. It is the same mark being struck against Tyson in other threads in order to diminish his accomplishments. I would expect this standard of excellence to be applied equally to all champions.

And again, if forced, I would not put my money on Greb. I am only saying, I would be a nervous better and give Greb about a 35% chance in winning anything under 15 rounds.

 

I haven't picked Greb from any decade ,or year ,if I did I would pick 1919 as his best year ,isn't that what you picked too?

I'm no Greb expert ,and as far as I know, Klompton is the only poster who might reasonably claim that title., unless you are putting your self forward?

I've allready stated Greb may be the best p4p fighter of all time ,that does not mean he will beat a prime Johnson though.

I am not even convinced he would beat prime versions of Jeannette and McVey, indeed they would be better than any heavyweights he ever did beat imo.

Your main point is irrelevant because we are picking on the assumption that both bring their best game to the table I am finding it hard to see why you are not grasping this ,unless you are deliberately being perverse.

I pick Johnson of the Reno fight to batter whatever Greb you want to pick,with the proviso that the fight is more than 6 rds ,up to that distance I give old Harry an out side chance of stealing a dec.

Whatever the merits of the Johnson O Brien No Dec,[and opinions are divided], reports say Johnson manhandled O Brien, and threw him to the canvas several times.But the most important thing to bear in mind, is it was only for 6 rds.

You were the first to put up photos and you deliberately picked the worst of the three examples you could find ,I may not be smart, but give me some credit ,you showed a lightweight picture of O Brien, a 1902 picture of Hart when he weighed 170lbs, and an early Choynski pic.

No drooling ,no man love ,just correcting your less than honest presentation.
I redressed the balance by showing pictures of O Brien when he was mature, and Hart when he was actually in the ring with Johnson.
I'm dissapointed , I thought you would bring more to the table, maybe firing off rounds from the sidelines really is your forte?:think

 

Dead meat? Johnson was 1-1-1 vs Super Middles not even as good as Greb! New flash, one Ko'd him, another out boxed ( but not out slugged )him, and the last one floored him in a losing effort, so STFU, and embrace the facts! deal:deal

Also who pick 1919? I would pick Greb at his best weigh of 170-175 for this match, just like you would pick Johnson at 205, not 185.

Greb who was rarely stopped was not close to going out in five matches with Tunney, who flims shows threw more punches than Johnson did. Sure Greb is dead meat after six....NOT.

No worries Mcvey, Greb wasn't a contender for Johnson's title in 1914, or 1915, but if he was I betcha Johnson would have avoided him too.

 

So says a poorly researched book. What source says this? Cuba in April has never reached 100-104 in the 20th century. Look up the weather archives. Dolt.

And then he said he took a dive. Utter crap.

The Griffin quote in his opinion tells us when Johnson had to face adversity in a tough fight, he took the patch of safety. Same as the Hart fight. And Griffin was past his best when he defeated Johnson, and drew with him. Deal with it.:deal

 

Sorry, the fights you were using as evidence were later in the 20's and when he was blind in one eye.

The footage available of these guys does not shine a good light on them or their era. It looks decidedly hack and toughman. They were great pioneers of the sport, and largely unrewarded for their efforts. I am not sure I can say they were great boxers in any objective sense. I know this tickles many the wrong way, and I could lie to go along with the history nerds but my eyes tell me something completely different. And yes, I have read and continue to read much about the era. I'm not a complete moron just off the General Forum.

I think a fighter's consistency of performance is entirely relative in a comparison. OK, you pick Reno. Then answer what percentage of the vaunted "Reno Johnson" was present versus Hart, versus O'Brien, versus Jim Johnson? Are we really to suppose that he was, say, half the fighter in those encounters as he was on July 4, 1910? If so, he sounds more like a one-off a la Buster Douglas than a great heavyweight champion.

Regardless of which pictures were chosen (and I believe Hart at 26 was a grown-ass man in that picture) it doesn't change the fact the O'Brien weighed 160-something. The point is that it was possible to hold off Johnson, a Johnson one would assume was in his prime, at a lighter weight, even by a lesser fighter than Greb, at least for 6 rounds. The idea the Greb could pull off the same feat over, say 10 rounds, does not sound far-fetched given his amazing record and reputation.

OK, we actually are not leagues away in opinion here, tho there still is a gulf. We both agree Johnson is the pick here. I just think Greb has a better chance at an upset given their respective records. As long as were are arguing honestly and with open minds, that is fine. I don't think either is going sway the other much and it's all getting a bit tedious. Though you may disagree, several other posters have regarded my greeted my observations as having merit.

 

The reason I picked those fights was to illustrate that Tunney did not have the huge weight advantage some posters assume,whereas prime Johnson would have .
You want to pick Greb from 1919 no problem,but then you cite Johnson's lack lustre display against O Brien as some kind of tenuous proof that it shows he might be on the losing end against Greb?
I say the 208lbs Johnson of Reno beats Harry up over 8rds or more.
I give you reasons why Johnson underperformed against O Brien.
You retort they are excuses. This is like the Ring Cycle, only longer, but just entertain this for a moment. Jack O Brien was a skilled , shifty ,defensive boxer, who lacked heavy duty power.He also disliked blacks in general and Johnson in particular. Johnson was well aware of this and had O Brien come down to the heart of the black section Frank Sutton's saloon to sign for the fight. Johnson gets a $5,000 guarantee for a 6rds no decision defence,in other words for O Brien to win he must stop Johnson ,very unlikely, and no one knew that more than Johnson ,Johnson does only cursory training for the fight, and cynically exploits the conditions of the match.
During the 6 rds Johnson uses his size to throw O Brien down 3 times ,whilst the Philadelphian dodges and darts around him picking up points when he can with left leads that Johnson ignores.
As a fight it is a farce ,Johnson is indifferent and untrained, O Brien is cautious and inneffectual. Both are booed at the end. In 2 days Johnson has spent the $5,000 easy come, easy go.
This is the "fight " you keep repeating indicates that Greb has a realistic chance with Johnson. I don't see it.
Neither the logic drawn from the result of a stinker of a match that we'll call a draw, for want of a definitive report, nor the relevance of a 6 rounds no decision fight that Johnson effectively could not lose .He took the fight as a money spinner while waiting for the Ketchel match.
Two weeks before the O Brien fight Johnson descibed his condition thus "I''m as fat as a jap wrestler". When we match fighters ,we match them prime for prime ,unless otherwise stated don't we?
Jack Johnson another Buster Douglas? If you say so.
How do you account for the fact that Johnson went from 1905 to 1915 without a loss, that's a decade.
Douglas's longest winning streak was 2 years.
I never cast aspersions on your intelligence, or your knowledge of boxing, there is only one poster I would presume to do that to. You suggested I should look up Greb's record, I agreed I am not an expert on him ,[or any other fighter ].
The pictures you posted I've covered, OBrien was a light weight in one, Hart was 170lbs ,25 below what he scaled when he fought Burns for the title.
O Brien may have a better chance of surviving against Johnson over 6 rds because he did not engage with Johnson ,whereas Greb presumably would at some point, ever thought of that?
I give Greb an outside chance of taking a decision over 6 rds,You up the ante to 10rds, not outrageous,just unlikely, imo.
If it was another no dec Harry's chances increase appreciably imo,if Johnson is defending his title over 10rds to a decision then I think Greb gets comprehensively hammered.