Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

Sugar Ray Robinson had the best all around offense I have ever seen, great speed, great accuracy, great power in both hands, could counter punch, throw combinations, etc...

I think Leonard, Gans, and Sugar Ray were vulnerable to great pressure fighters with high punch out puts and top chins. Greb could beat Sugar Ray at 160 pounds. Let's remember Sugar Ray was a natural welter at 147.

 

Mendoza,

Check your pm`s and e-mail, as I got back to you a few days ago but haven`t heard back from you.

 

Ok, will do.

 

A pickem fight ,imo,Loughran said the key to beating Greb was to start fast and hit him with short punches to the chest and midriff,Tunney also utilised a body attack against the charging Greb,What a fight it would be!

 

You took a series of fight reports from his first two years as pro and expanded those criticisms out to include his whole career. I don't for a moment that the fight reports were a fair summation of what they saw. However, I do question your overstating the issue. By questioning your objectivity and your position, I am not calling the writers you quoted naturally biased against Robinson. It reads as if you are trying to shield yourself from any critique of your argument by hiding behind your handpicked reports.

The bottom line is that I think that Robinson was a complete fighter, you do not. I brought up quotes from known and respected boxing figures that confirm what I think, you brought up quotes from fight reports (and claim to have more from later in his career) that confirm what you think.

I didn't ignore these claims, I rejected them, and told you why.

Wrong. Perhaps you should read more carefully.

 

Again, you don't understand Robinson's style and you evidently don't read those parts of my posts that describe his style. Robinson was not as defensively-minded as you may have liked. Nor was he as willing to fight inside as you would like, but for good reason. Robinson was a fierce competitor who was not looking to dazzle guys like his student -Ali, but was out there to inflict a beating and gain a KO. He was both mobile and explosive and fashioned his style around that.

He was best at long and mid- range. Inside was riskier, especially when fighting guys like Zivic or the unorthodox Turpin where you invited headbutts. So he took the efficient road. However, he was no dunce on the inside as you seem hell-bent on proving.

 

Ray Arcel remembers Billy Gibson calling in Benny Leonard to talk to Tunney about Greb and how to beat him. Gibson managed both.

Leonard told him to go to the body -particulary with the right because Greb was very elusive for such an offensive-minded fighter. Leonard also encouraged him not to rush the rematch. "The longer you wait, the better it is for you," Leonard told him, "because this guy dissipates. He drinks. He runs around with women."

Leonard stayed around Tunney because Tunney, who was a bit aloof, listened to Benny and respected him.

Anyway, this is a pick 'em. Although I have to slightly favor Robinson -who was as complete a fighter as there ever was.

 

I read that harry greb beat the snot out of dempsey in a sparring match. SO I would take greb in a WIDE UD

 

Dempsey couldn't handle Greb -he couldn't hit him and he couldn't nail him and the problem seemed to have been that he was loading up too much.

However, if A can beat B, it doesn't necessarily mean that therefore A can beat C.

 

Nobody disputing he was great offensively. But only at long range (he didn't work much at mid-range with his mobile style). At close fighting he very rarely fired back.

What's the base of such opinion regarding Leonard and Gans? Unlike Robinson they didn't mind fighting in close, even though both were at their best at long range too, same as Robinson.

 

Interesting insight into Tunney,s preparation,I read that Gibson couldnt do much with Tunney tactically ,so it made sense for him to enlist a great boxer ,and shrewd analyst like Leonard ,someone that Tunney would listen to.
Greb did like the wine and the women ,and disliked training ,but he was in the ring in actual fights so often that he trained "on the job ",so to speak.Reports of Greb making a fool out of Dempsey are true ,and Jack was trying to nail him,,[he never carried sparring partners],but doing 3 rounds is different to surviving the distance of a fight,as Jack Delaney observed"Harry got away with it for now ,but no one gets away with it against Jack for ever"

 

Greb himself acknowledged that training for fights would be redundant in so many words.

And you're point about Greb looking good for 3 rounds is well taken as well. However, it did serve as a precursor to Tunney's success against him. Dempsey's style was, in my opinion, vulnerable to skilled boxers who are either (a) elusive or (b) strong enough and smart enough to move him backwards.