Harry Wills fought 43 fights from 1919 to 1925 who really had a chance

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by dempsey1234, Jun 9, 2016.


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  1. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    I find it absurd for anyone to refer to Wills as a journeyman. I also doubt that was what Arcel said .. he dominated Langford as no other man ever did, the same Langford Dempsey would never go near. He crushed Fulton, diced up Firpo, destroyed Norfolk all when he was an older fighter .. He badly wanted to fight Dempsey, fought and defeated better men than Dempsey ever did and was refused the fight despite huge money offered to Jack multiple times for such a match. There is no doubt Kearns and Rickard wanted no part of Wills as they both knew Dempsey was not the same guy he was prior to 1921 .. too much inactivity, too much risk .. diminishing Wills as a fighter to serve the purpose of protecting Dempsey is transparent nonsense. I have no idea who would have won had they fought but they didnt fight because of Dempsey's camp and not Wills ..
     
    he grant, Jun 12, 2016
    he grant, Jun 12, 2016
    #136
  2. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #137
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You are incorrect, it is a fact that Salido and Weaver were ranked by Ring Magazine (and the alphabet strap organisations)before they won a title. This is statement of fact, not an opinion.

    They were both ranked guys who had previously fought for world titles. Anyone who considered Weaver a journeyman after his effort with Holmes is an idiot.

    It may be possible to construct an argument where Salido is considered journeyman, but it is not possible to construct one where Wills is considered a journeyman. It's silly.

    My being a moderator has no baring on my opinions about what constitutes a journeyman. That's silly.


    I see a fighter better than a journeyman. Clearly, and beyond all hope of dispute. But even if I saw a terrible, terrible fighter, his achievements denote that he cannot be considered a journeyman regardless of my feelings about his skill.
     
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    #138
  4. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    How about the series they fought, and the times Wills was tossed
    for not trying. Prime example the McVea fight, Is all that you wrote a fact, nope it wasn't, just cos you said it doesnt make it so.

    Tell me what you see of Wills that convinces you that he is anything but a mediocre fighter, who does the same thing in both clips, but you guys just say this and that. Based on the visual evidence, what makes you think Wills was so great. Point it out, It's not guessing. What do you see?????
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #139
  5. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It's a fact with a spin, I did say "before they made their title run", it's not difficult.
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #140
  6. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Maybe the idiot is the one who spins things to fit his agenda. What was the record of both before they made their title run????
    See again who said anything about Weaver's fight with Holmes, that FYI was for the title. I did specify before their title run, maybe you missed that. But anything to make your point.
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #141
  7. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You as a moderator should be more informed I would think, but maybe not cos it would be silly of me not to assume that a moderator would know.
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #142
  8. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Mc then I would guess you don't know what you are looking at cos even a contemporary writers, said it was bad.
    See here you are saying something about his past, when I specifically asked you what you saw.

    Ask all your friends who gave you their definition of journeyman to give you their take on Wills performance. I believe you are being less then truthful in your an alysis, cos I would venture to guess that you would be in the minority.

    especially when you say "I see a fighter better than a journeyman. Clearly, and beyond all hope of dispute". You state it as if it was a fact, it clearly isn't
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #143
  9. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    I see a 35 year old fighter. At 35 Dempsey was about to get slapped around by Kingfish Levinsky. The facts are Dempsey's team refused to have Jack fight him. Kearn's knew Wills very well as he managed him. It is what it is .. if you get off by dissing Wills to excuse Dempsey for ducking his number one contender thats your choice. I see it without rose colored lenses ..
     
    he grant, Jun 12, 2016
    he grant, Jun 12, 2016
    #144
  10. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Wills did not get a title shot because those that controlled boxing were not going to let any black hwt fight for the championship.

    Their is a reason why only two black hwts (Johnson and Louis) got to fight a white champion from the beginnings of the modern sport of boxing (Sullivan) to the second Marciano-Walcott fight.

    It did not matter who he was if he was black he was not getting a title shot.
     
    Perry, Jun 12, 2016
    Perry, Jun 12, 2016
    #145
  11. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    We are not talking about a 35 - 50 yr Dempsey we are talking about Wills. There is a difference Wills took care of himself, Dempsey partied. It's not Dempsey's fault Wills was 35. It's not Dempsey's fault that Wills looked miserable with the handpicked fat Firpo.
    Wills had an opportunity to shine, in the Firpo fight this time Rickard gave him the opponent, paid him well. You see you guys come with hearsay evidence and state it as facts. Sorry unless you have proof, as in catching Dempsey saying "I flat out refuse to fight Wills, then you can say it's a fact.
    I would say IMO that the majority of people who knew Dempsey and Wills, would put their money on Dempsey.
    All you have is hearsay evidence nothing concrete. I am not dumping on Wills there is plenty out there to point out without making stuff up, like team Dempsey refused to let him fight Wills, that is not proof, is the proof that you have, that Dempsey didn't fight Wills, is that your proof????
    From 1919-1923, 4yrs ok not seven
    Here is a list of guys he fought from 1919-1923
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    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #146
  12. kingfisher3

    kingfisher3 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    :think
     
    kingfisher3, Jun 13, 2016
    kingfisher3, Jun 13, 2016
    #147
  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    A journeyman could equally mean a decent contender who isn't quite special enough to be tipped to be champion. Or someone around that level. But then again the term "contender" has been disputed often too.

    I've seen old newspaper articles where contenders such as Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Ron Lyle have been described as "journeyman". Those are just examples that spring to mind. I don't think the term was being used incorrectly then.
     
    Unforgiven, Jun 13, 2016
    Unforgiven, Jun 13, 2016
    #148
  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    That's undeniably true because Harry Wills hit him and floored him.

    I'll have to read the whole report, but it is strange if this reporter doesn't mention the fact that the retreat and punch occurred while the referee was stepped in and breaking them.
    That's something several fighters of the time were called up on - including Dempsey - and I believe it was formally prohibited under the NY commission rules.
     
    Unforgiven, Jun 13, 2016
    Unforgiven, Jun 13, 2016
    #149
  15. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    This is what I've always thought a journeyman is.

    I can imagine a situation where all the ranked contenders are journeymen. That's what we call a "weak era", or when we say "there's no one around really". The contenders just seem a bit ordinary. Solid professionals but nothing special or inspiring.

    I don't know when journeyman became downgraded, but I've seen guys with 6-85 type record being described as "journeymen" in modern times because they usually go the distance. I'd call them professional losers. :lol:
    Which is accurate.
     
    Unforgiven, Jun 13, 2016
    Unforgiven, Jun 13, 2016
    #150
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