Harry Wills fought 43 fights from 1919 to 1925 who really had a chance

If you have positive proof that these guys avoided Wills ,I'm sure we would all like to see it ,I certainly would and just to further my knowledge not for any agenda .
My stance on Wills not getting a title shot is known by now I hope.
I didn't name guys that those men beat earlier in their careers because I wanted a level playing field. Whether Brennan beat all his opponents or not is beside the point ,the point is he was willing to meet dangerous opponents as his record proves.
I have no dislike of Wills and no agenda,I do think he is a bit overated today but revisionism is rife on this forum sometimes correctly so, sometimes not, imo.
Back to the point just saying these guys wanted no part of Wills doesn't cut it, you need proof to back that statement up ,otherwise it gets the same credibility as me saying Greb told Red Mason," don't get me Dempsey,he will kill me over 15 rds"

 

Klompton has three pet hates here.
Dempsey
Tunney
Carpentier

He probably has others, but these take so much of his hate up he doesn't have time to spread it any thinner.

However it is ," the rest of us," that have the agenda.:think

 

I think there are some odd points about this post'

"Dempsey"---but Wills was trying to get a fight with Dempsey. What is the point that Dempsey was willing to fight Brennan but not Wills.

"Brennan"

Madden
Dempsey (KO defeat)
Greb (several defeats)
Levinsky (a win but also defeats)
Miske (KO defeat)
Firpo (KO defeat)

but note that this guy gets a shot at the title despite having already been stopped by Dempsey in 1918.

"Godfrey"

Sharkey (defeat)
Gains (not really a contender during Dempsey era)
Fulton
Langford (three KO defeats)
Renault (split losses and wins)

"Gibbons"

Madden
Miske (lost & won)
Tunney (KO defeat)
Carpentier
Dempsey (lost)
Greb (won & lost)
Norfolk (KO, but Wills KO'd him also)

and Gibbons got his shot

"Renault"

Risko
Godfrey (won & lost)
Rojas (lost & won)
Madden
Fulton
Tunney (NC)
Sharkey (loss)

Weinert

not mentioned but

Sharkey (2 wins)
Firpo (loss & won)
Rojas
Levinsky (lost & won)
Madden
*Gunboat Smith (won in 1915)
Greb (lost)
Fulton (KO'd by)
Miske (KO'd by
Tunney (lost & KO'd by)
Wills (KO'd by )

The Austrian born Weinert was the guy who fought every body.

Wills

Madden (won)
Fulton (KO)
Langford (won)
Norfolk (KO)
Firpo (won)
Weinert (KO)

Looks to me like Wills actually has the best record. His only loss in the whole period was on a DQ in a fight in which the other guy finished on his back in the first round, and whom he KO'd on a couple of other occasions. The others for the most part were in and out, losing frequently. The exception, arguably, is Gibbons, but much of his fighting was at light-heavyweight, and HE GOT A SHOT.

 

Here is Wills' take on it...

"I am discriminated against in violation of every principle on which this democracy was founded. I am an American citizen and a clean, decent man. I am a tax payer. I have made an honest living all my life. Never once have I done anything that bred even the slightest suspicion as to my honesty, integrity, and respectability. I can't understand why I am not given a chance.

"Firpo hasn't a chance against Mr. Dempsey. He doesn't belong in there with him. It is nothing short of criminal to stage such a match...

"I note that I have been criticized in some quarters for not fighting. The fault is not mine...

"Do you think you could some of these so-called contenders in the ring with me. Gibbons? Jess Willard shunned me as Dempsey is shunning me.

"I could get matches. I could have all the fights I want if I did a certain kind of business. I don't want to meet a lot of set-ups and high divers... I have never avoided a good man, but I'll confess I am willfully avoiding the bad ones.

"I am willing to fight any first class heavyweight on a winner-take-all basis."

(In response to a winner-take-all with Dempsey)

"Certainly I will, and I'll do it with a smile."

 

It's nice to see Harry Wills was as capable of talking absolute sh!t with the rest of them then. :good

(Assuming he even said all that, and it wasn't just something written up by his manager.)

 

Sure Wills' comment on Firpo is over the top.

And it indeed might actually be a comment coming from his manager.

"Wills changed his mind"

He signed a blank contract. It was Rickard who chose Firpo to fight him.

"Who did the job? Dempsey or Wills?"

Both did the job.

"find out why Wills blew his shot."

Like it or not, there is a clear and easy answer. The racism of America at the time. It pains me that this is true, but it obviously is.

 

Dempsey1234

"which one was sensational and who was mediocre"

One of them was knocked down and knocked out of the ring, and seems to have been illegally helped back in. The other wasn't. Actually, it is quite easy to say that Wills did better even though his best years should have been well behind him, while Dempsey was 28. Wills never came close to losing.

"the race card"

You sound like Jimmy Durante when was he caught in Jumbo sneaking an elephant out of the circus past the law. Confronted by policemen, with the elephant standing right there, he blandly says "What elephant?"

You are welcome to think that Wills being African-American had nothing to do with his never fighting for the title,

but to me it is just blindly denying an elephant that is standing right in front of you.

"Wills and his manager didn't help matters any."

Their strategy didn't work, so it is easy to criticize. I can't think of any strategy that would have worked, though.

"gimme"

Whatever. Beating Firpo was not nearly as impressive as Brennan, Miske, and Gibbons LOSING to Greb, but going on to get heavyweight title shots.

 

While I believe Harry Wills was unjustly denied a shot at the title, and was clearly either directly or indirectly a victim of racial discrimination, I'm not sure what people see in his record that makes them rated him so incredibly highly.

Plenty of his fights against second- and third-raters (and worse) seem to have been dull and mediocre performances. Standard heavyweight fare.
It's not as if this guy was putting on scintillating and devastating displays. Even against bums he laboured often.
Perhaps he was the best of a poor crop.

Can't believe some of these posters who have us believe Harry Wills was a great fighter for over a decade, the same posters who will dismiss Cleveland Williams as a fraud or a sideshow.
For example.

 

This reminds me of Jones-McCallum bout, a fight Roy won every round, 120-107 on all three scorecards, but it is still held against him, that he had to win more convincingly. So winning every round and scoring a knockdown is not enough? Wills won all 12 rounds and scored a knockdown too.

1924-09-12 Brooklyn Daily Eagle (page A2)
By THOMAS S. RICE
Wills won every round of the encounter, such as it was. Possibly some writers may have given their newspaper decision in favor of Firpo having one round, or even two, but the most optimistic Firpo writer we met was Nat Fleischer, who said he thought Firpo had one round even, but could not think what round that was.

 

Harry Wills' knockdown of Firpo looks like a blatant foul on the film. Sucker punched him on the break. Did any reports mention that ?
Or did the rules allow such a thing ?