Harry Wills fought 43 fights from 1919 to 1925 who really had a chance

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by dempsey1234, Jun 9, 2016.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    My opinion isn't "invalid." My opinion on journeymen is far closer to what is normally accepted than yours. What makes your unusual opinion on what constitutes a journeyman valid and mine invalid?
     
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    #121
  2. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Cos in this forum people take opinions as facts so just to dispel that I feel I have to paraphrase it with "it's only an opinion".
    I hope that's clear, let me ask since you counted the opinion thing, is it or is it not just an opinion, what I responded to.

    Please tell me what me writing "it's only an opinion", is wrong,
    they are opinions not facts.

    I mean I cant believe you went to the trouble of counting the times I wrote "it's only an opinion", ask yourself is that true or not?

    So, tell me why I cant say that when it's the truth. It's like arguing about journeyman, I gave you my opinion. That's all it is and I am not claiming it's fact.
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #122
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    But it doesn't dispel it, at all. It's the metaphorical equivalent of a child sticking his fingers in his ears so he won't hear what's being said to him.

    What you are trying to "dispel" is a series of opinions that are forged to create an argument. People treat hardcore opinions as facts because they have forged them. You can't "dispel" them by pointing out that they are opinions.

    I know it's true; i checked. It took about 11 seconds. No trouble.
     
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    #123
  4. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A fighter without pretensions to great success. A fighter outwith the title picture. Unranked, and unlikely to obtain a ranking.

    "In boxing and mixed martial arts, a journeyman is a fighter who has adequate skill but is not of the caliber of a contender or gatekeeper. Hence, when applied to them, a 'journeyman' implies a fighter who is no longer a novice, and has the sufficient degree of boxing skill that my be expected from a professional, but who does not have the mastery possessed by the contenders."

    There are a lot of journeyman fighters who could give hell to anybody. Believe it or not there are many fighters who were not gifted with speed, power or skills. I will give you a good example(IMO) Carson Jones, a tried and true journeyman, went to your side of the pond and gave Kell Brooks all kinds of hell in their first fight. Kell's superior skills prevailed in their second fight.

    I would say Jones did alright for himself in standing up to a
    vastly superior fighter and earning another fight with Kell.

    "what is a journeyman? In many field, such as a journeyman plumber, a journeyman electrician? They are guys who have some knowledge but are not masters of their fields. Tell me what was Wills the master of? The visual evidence points to Wills not being the master of anything besides holding and hitting, hitting on the break, wrestling. If Wills had any standout skills don't you think those clips from 1924 would show something of them? Yes he was not the same as when he was younger, but skill and experience are still there. Maybe you could say he wasn't as fast or that his reflexes weren't what they used to be, but skills they stay with you, if you had a jab, it
    might not be as fast but you would still have it. Wills showed the same style and inclination to grab, hit and hold, in both fights that are on youtube. That's got to tell you something."

    journeyman
    [jur-nee-muh n]
    Spell Syllables
    • Examples
    • Word Origin
    See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
    noun, plural journeymen.
    1.
    a person who has served an apprenticeship at a trade or handicraft and is certified to work at it assisting or under another person.
    2.
    any experienced, competent but routine worker or performer.

    Don't get stuck on "only an opinion", see if what I post either makes sense or not. If you have an opposing view that makes sense fine come with it. Your definition is only that your.......
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #124
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You're free to define journeyman any way you wish.

    It's you who dismissed my opinion on a journeyman as "invalid", not the other way around.

    I think your version of what constitutes a journeyman is odd, that is, at odds with how the boxing world generally defines it. I have no idea why you've decided to adopt this unusual opinion but it's probably so you are free to define Harry Wills, one of the most accomplished heavies of his era, one, and appear more reasonable.

    But it's a chicken-egg really. Either way, it's odd.
     
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    #125
  6. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I guess you don't get it, that you went through the 11 sec, to prove what? That I posted 13 times "it's only an opinion" proving what?


    Thank you that sticking your fingers in your ears works both ways, IMO.

    You either have a valid argument or not, if you just say "Wills" was great, and just leave it there, without explaining why, that makes it open to discussion. I gave you a valid response to journeyman even giving you an example and all you can argue on is, "opinions.:patsch
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #126
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Because everyone involved knows they are exchanging opinions, for the most part. It's known. It is well known. It is a fact. It is not something that any but the most bizarrely constructed poster don't know. It is obvious. It is generally accepted. It is something of which the poster posting the opinion is aware.

    You're basically trying to "dispel" a horse and cart by saying "this is a horse and cart."


    In the same post I pointed out that it's deeply frustrating talking to, or reading posts by, someone who continually feels the need to inform everyone he's talking to that their opinion is "only an opinion." I felt, in levying this accusation, that it would be wise to demonstrate the truth of the matter, namely that you did this.

    Which I did.

    Yes, you did do that; but at no time did I say your opinion was invalid. So you were arguing with yourself.

    You, on the other hand HAVE said my opinion is invalid. And pointedly avoided my question about what made it so.
     
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    #127
  8. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #128
  9. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    No doubt Wills coasted in some capacity from 22 on but Firpo and Fulton were big names at the time of his bouts w them .. he also destroyed a small but terrific Kid Norfolk, a fighter that gave Greb his toughest non-Tunney bouts and a man Dempsey did not want to fight so badly either ..
     
    he grant, Jun 12, 2016
    he grant, Jun 12, 2016
    #129
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    My opinion is "based" upon what you posted. If your opinion is actually much vaster but you have chosen not to share it, that's nothing to do with me.

    This, specifically, is how an internet forum works.

    Your vast and undemonstrated experience aside, i'll just continue to judge you based upon what you post, the same as every poster on this forum treats every other poster on this forum.

    The entirety of my "assumptions" are based upon what you post. There is literally no other way for me to proceed, and it is entirely normal in every conceivable way; it is the opposite of odd.
     
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    #130
  11. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    [



    [/QUOTE]

    Fair enough, here is your quote which I am referring to:

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    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #131
  12. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Mc I posted what I thought, and you have only addressed "opinion", address the journeyman examples and quotes. I have addressed yours.
     
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    dempsey1234, Jun 12, 2016
    #132
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This is now what i am trying to reply to:

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    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    #133
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I cannot see any possible justification for labelling Wills as a journeyman, even if he was as bad as his detractors claim.

    If he was a journeyman, it is a pretty damning indictment on everybody else in that era!
     
    janitor, Jun 12, 2016
    janitor, Jun 12, 2016
    #134
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well the key seems to be he's redefined journeyman as people would understand the word, probably in an effort to legitimise the use of the word in this case.

    But I do agree; it just doesn't make any sense. He was, at absolute worse, the fourth or fifth best heavyweight of that era (I think he was second or third). If Wills was a journeyman, it's a disaster for the quality of the era, however you are defining the word.
     
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 12, 2016
    #135
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