Harry Wills v Jim Jeffries .The Panther v The Grizzly Bear 15rds?

Thanks, Bummy. While you were talking to Nat I was peeping through the doors of the strip shows in Times Square...a little earlier actually ....early 60's.

 

Ruhiln is the best example 6'2" tall with a 78" reach. Trained down to 200 pounds. Gus had ability and was probably #1 ranked when Jeffries beat him.

Munroe was 215. Kennedy likely above 200. The three lasted a combined nine rounds vs. what should be viewed as a prime Jeffries.

Wills just isn't very fast or defensive. He was born at the right time to dominate his era, and also born at the wrong time to get a title shot.

 

Well, I brought up the size issue. Ruhlin and Kennedy were about 200. One thing about Wills. The old Ring Record Book listed his height as 6' 4"--it was written by men who knew Harry personally, and Wills does look a shade taller than Firpo on film. So I think Wills is a notch bigger than anyone Jeff fought. You have often made the fair point that by historical standards Jeff's opponents were not all that small on the average.

"Wills just isn't very fast or defensive."

We don't have a film prior to Wills being 35. And the films are hand-cranked. Hard to judge speed, but Wills was given the nickname of the Panther when younger because of his perceived quickness for a big man. Jeff was called the Bear. Impossible to judge w/o more film of both in prime, but Wills could very well have been the faster man.

"He was born at the right time to dominate his era, and also born at the wrong time to get a title shot."

You hit the nail on the head here.

As I posted, more or less a flip a coin choice, especially because of the lack of good film,

I went with Wills, because I didn't want to come off as a mugwump.

 

Ed,

Wills was just 32 vs Fripo, and we have film of that. He does not look very skilled, just moderately skilled and his power isn't close to Dempsey's either. The film is clear and runs at a good speed to judge. He is neither fast or defense. Wills could have been the only man born in his prime with some size, power and skills.

I think the film you are referring to is vs. Uzcudun, when Wills was 35 and gets stopped early. Wills is also on film vs another guy I think it was Bartley Madden and disappoints. Wills was also 32 years old for the Madden fight.

I don't think Will was 6'4" tall. 6'2" seems right for Wills. Firpo's height is reported at 6'2 1/2". They look even in height on this film and there is a lot of wrestling around. Fripo looks awful by the way.

Jeffries has a slight reach edge over Wills, and would be a bit heavier. But in the end Wills just did not take the best punch and wasn't fast/elusive enough like say Corbett to land and get out of way.

 

Ruhlin had ability and was large by the standards of the time. After Ruhlin beat Sharkey in 1900, he was likely viewed as #1. Matt D thinks he was #1 for 1901. There is some talk of Ruhlin for the hall of fame by the way.

Munroe was big guy for the time ( 215 pounds ), and on a winning streak, only stopped by Jeffries. You can make a case he was in the top 10 in 1904.

Kennedy wasn't very good, but he was big and did not last as long.

My point was the bigger men Jeffries face did not last as long, and I showed it

There really were not any 220 pound world class fighters expect for Jeffries, so you can't he didn't fight any of them, but you sort of do. And just so we don't waste space, if you going to say the guys Jeffries beat were small, I'll point out at least he wasn't ko'd by men 200 pound or less like Louis, Dempsey and Johnson were.

History had to wait a long time until antler champion close to that size came around. Likely Sonny Liston.

 

Mendoza,

Wills was 35 when he fought Firpo. The US Census has wills listed born in 1889

 

"Wills was just 32 vs Firpo"

The US census and his gravestone list 1889 as the year of his birth. I consider that the best evidence. It makes him 35 in 1924. It makes him 38 in 1927 when he was stopped by Uzcudun.

"Wills could have been the only man born in his prime with some size, power and skills."

I think you mean born in his time. Yes, this is correct. But he might well have been faster overall than the other big fellows of that time.

"I don't think Wills was 6' 4" tall."

He looks taller than Firpo to me. Of course there is a lot of moving around, but that is the way it looks to me. The folks who said he was 6' 4" were friends of his and I assume were often standing right next to him. But as always with height, who exactly knows? He weighed 217 for Firpo. I think he would look blockier if he were only 6' 2". He looks tall and lean.

"Firpo looks awful"

Yeah. Just big and strong, but very crude. But I don't see Firpo doing much on this film except rabbit punching in the clinches.

"Wills just did not take the best punch"

Yes, I would credit Jeff with the better chin. Punching power is difficult to judge.

I have no problem with anyone favoring Jeff in this one. It is a tight pick, I think, with very little film of either, and none at all of a prime Wills.

 

I already showed you the heavier the opponents were for Jeffries, the less time in general it too to beat them. I'll make it easy for you:

Ruhlin 200 pounds, 5 rounds ( Floored twice ). Clearly a highly ranked fighter.
Munroe 215 pounds, 2 rounds ( floored twice, essentially over in round one )
Kennedy, likely over 200 pounds, 2 rounds ( Knocked through the ropes )
Jackson 195-200 pounds. 3 rounds ( Down 3 times, tangled in the ropes unable to get up.)

Van Buskirk might have been 200 pounds, and is listed as high as 203. Jeffries took him out in 2 rounds in an early fight in his career.

So that's five names, which lasted on average 2.8 rounds.


James J. Jeffries, aspirant for championship honors, whose chief claim to distinction in the pugilistic world is based on his having been Jim Corbett's chief boxing partner while the ex-champion was undergoing his preparation at Carson, knocked out Theodore Van Buskirk, a California heavyweight, last night in two rounds. The contest was brought off by the National Athletic Club, and between 5,000 and 6,000 people were present. Jeffries has adopted Corbett's style of fighting as nearly as any man who has ever appeared here. He allowed Van Buskirk to do the forcing, showing much cleverness in ducking and hitting in the breakaway. He was especially effective with his right hand in the breakaways, scoring heavily on his opponent's face and jaw, cutting a deep gash over Van's eye in the first round. The blow which put Van Buskirk out in the second round was a right hand cross squarely on the jaw. Van turned completely around and fell like a log on his face, and was counted out before he could get on his feet. (The Galveston Daily News)

There was nothing wrong with Ruhlin in 1901, Jeffries beat him a round faster than Fitzsimmons did. Matt D think Ruhlin was #1 for a year, no worse than #3 contender by anyone who knows what they are talking about in 1901.

As I told you before there were no great fighters Jeffries size until many years after he retired.

 

yea they had the magazine stand on 42nd Street, had all the newest Boxing mags and a lot of crazy happenings around there back in the day. Mayor Rudi Guiliani later cleaned it up

 

Monroe was 215, I showed you the San Fan Conical article that covered the fight and the weights. It doesn't really matter what his weight was, he did not have the durability to last with an angry & motivated Jeffries.

Jeffries took the fight partly because Munroe lied to the press about their initial 4 round encounter where Jeffries floored him a few times, but Monroe claimed a knockdown that did not exist.

Anyway, all points of mine stand as usual. Those 200 or above did not last long.